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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle24><font size=2 color="#003300"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>There is substantial fuselage side area behind the CG also.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle24><font size=2 color="#003300"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle24><font size=2 color="#003300"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jerry Voth<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 10, 2007
1:34 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rudder</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I've been
folloing this thread and there is one thing that puzzles me. The vertical fin
and rudder are (and I'm guessing) about 20% of the total side area of a pattern
plane. If it were weathervaning,why wouldn't the nose be more prone to blow in
the direction of the wind?</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>-----
Original Message ----- </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;background:#E4E4E4;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>
<div style='font-color:black'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com" title="drykert2@rochester.rr.com">Del
K. Rykert</a> </span></font></div>
<font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Wednesday, October 10,
2007 2:23 PM</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rudder</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=blue
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Thank
goodness judges don't have a T & B ball in a panel in front of them to
watch how many are skidding through the air.. grins.. I have always felt
if all things are pure the pattern airplane in true corrected crab maintains it
same speed when pulling to vertical and the crosswind component stays constant
then no further input is needed till your speed starts to decay when pulling
vertical. What many are doing is flying one wing low when in level fight
then when they pull vertical have to sneak in some extra correction for pulling
a highly visible vertical to the judges. </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=blue
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=blue
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>
Del</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:
0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>----- Original Message
----- </span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:44.4pt;background:#E4E4E4;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>
<div style='font-color:black'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com" title="jim.woodward@baesystems.com">Woodward,
Jim</a> </span></font></div>
<font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:
0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> </span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:
0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Wednesday, October 10, 2007 1:31 PM</span></font><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:
0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rudder</span></font><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:
0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Bob – the correct answer on using aileron during a radius, for the
purpose of wind correction, is that if you are NOT using it is a
downgrade(able). It’s impossible in every way to use only rudder
through a radius actually keep the “wings-level” to the intended flight path.<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><O:P></O:P>Maneuvers are to be wind-corrected and flown in a single
vertical plane – anything less is uncivilized </span></font><font size=2
color=navy face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;
color:navy'>J</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><O:P></O:P>The wings should be “level” at every part of the
curve/radius, and the only way to do that is by rolling the plane, slightly.<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Thanks,<O:P></O:P></span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Jim</ST1:PERSONNAME> W.<O:P></O:P></span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black;font-weight:bold'><O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob Richards<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 10, 2007
1:19 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</ST1:PERSONNAME><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Rudder</span></font><O:P></O:P><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><O:P></O:P>That
is the best description I have read so far. Agree 100%.<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><O:P></O:P>Not
long ago, I was talking with someone about wind correction and mentioned that a
very small amount of aileron should be used when pulling a radius to a vertical
line. He said if he ever saw me do it while he was judging, he would downgrade.
I told him if I do it right, he will never see it. :-)<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><O:P></O:P>Bob
R.<O:P></O:P></span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>J N Hiller
<jnhiller@earthlink.net></span></i></b> wrote:<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:48.15pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><span
class=EmailStyle21><font size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This has been an interesting
discussion. The airplane dose not establish a crab angle on it’s own when in
the air. The airplane has a crab angle in horizontal flight and when it is
pulled vertical the wings will not be perpendicular to the flight path without
a roll correction. The need for the correction will be apparent and
automatically applied prior to finishing the radius. When a roll input is
applied with elevator it changes the heading in the direction of roll, (think
barrel roll) in this case into the wind as it finishes the radius. Most of the
time it will be excessive requiring a little opposite (down wind) rudder
correction unless the upwind wing was high entering the pull-up. Once the
airplane is leaning to one side in a vertical the lean will increase and is
especially noticeable as it slows. Some increase is needed to maintain wind
correction and the need for opposite rudder to maintain a vertical track
depends on how rapidly the airplane is decelerated. Most of the time I will try
to apply some down wind rudder with the roll correction at about 45 degrees,
before the need becomes visible as it is nearly always required. In short just
point the airplane in the direction you want it to go and stir the sticks as
necessary.<O:P></O:P></span></font></span><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:
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solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"><span
class=EmailStyle21><font size=2 color="#993366" face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim</ST1:PERSONNAME> Hiller<O:P></O:P></span></font></span><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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