<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">I couldn't find the beginning of this discussion so it is impossible to contribute a whole lot. However, airplanes do tend to weathervane (we called it weathercock in the missile business) into a crosswind but a plane that has static yaw stability will tend to compensate as the relative wind strikes the vertical stabilizer and fuse area behind the cg. At high speed the weathervaning is less (more force on the vertical stab) than at low speed and I suspect that is why slow flying (electrics?) planes don't look good in strong crosswinds.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Jim O</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV> <BR><DIV><DIV>On Oct 10, 2007, at 9:07 AM, <A href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net">ronlock@comcast.net</A> wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth, but maybe it turned into too much. Ya been warned <G>.</DIV><P class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> </P><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">There is a strong, almost overwhelming, visual perception that airplanes weathervane into the wind as seen by an observer on the ground.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">If the airplane is partly connected to the ground (as in takeoff or landing roll) it will likely weathervane into the wind. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(Like a real weathervane on the barn).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Putting more side area behind the CG probably increases the weathervane effect.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">But once airborne, an airplane no longer feels wind on side of the airplane and does not weathervane in the sense that the weathervane on the barn does.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Nor does the hot air balloon mentioned in an earlier post.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">Just after take off, we likely see the nose is pointed some amount into the wind.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This visual perception is true. But is it proof of weathervaning?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It probably weathervaned into the wind during take off roll. Once airborne the weathervane is now what we call a crab angle into the wind.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">We all know stall turns are easier to do "into the wind". <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is it because they weathervane?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>On the upline to a stall turn in a cross wind, does the pilot wind correct the airplanes track?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Most of us do, consciously or not.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If we are having any success at all with the wind correction, the fuselage is "leaning" into the wind a bit <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It's certainly easier to get a stall turn by continuing into the established lean, than it is to go against the lean to the downwind direction.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">Pilots try to make heading adjustments to hold track, or hold distance in lines and maneuvers. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Those adjustments (crab angles) can appear to be a result of weathervaning, but are often pilot inputs, consciously or not.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">Related things to consider-<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">Airplanes do get "hit" in the side, top and bottom when in turbulent wind, and wind shear situations.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We fly low, and are often in turbulence.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>There may be short, nearly random, turbulent air effects that result in a weather vane type effect.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">A free flight glider does not weather vane into the wind.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The glider may fly in circles, but it will drift downwind at the overall average of the wind speed.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>No matter how much side area is put behind the CG, it will not find and maintain a heading into the wind.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">Given flight in no wind situation, a string tied on nose of an airplane blows exactly backwards and parallel to the fuselage.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(unless the airplane is out of rig, or has control surface inputs). <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If flown in a cross wind direction, the airplanes track across the ground changes, but the string stays straight. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(not counting any effect of propeller induced spiral airflow)</DIV><P class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN> </P><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">The old full scale stories about loosing airspeed and stalling while doing a "downwind turn" fit into this discussion to a degree. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Does wind hit the tail of an airplane as it turns downwind thereby reducing airspeed?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In the "old" days, pilots often flew low and partly judged airplane speed by visual observation of ground speed. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(similiar to our situation of observing from the ground)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This could lead to the perception of plenty of ground speed being plenty</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">Sorting out the visual perception of the "obvious" weather vane effect is tough.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Lots of things complicate the observation - pilot inputs, turbulence, paralax, and more.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></DIV><P class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN> </P><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">IMHO, bottom line, it's not wind hitting side of airplane, no matter how much side area is behind the CG.</SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P>Later, Ron</O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; "><O:P> </O:P></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; ">In summary, I agree that as observers on the ground, we "see" effects that appear to be weathervaning.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But the "real" cause</DIV></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 56px; text-indent: -56px; font: normal normal normal 18px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); min-height: 22px; "><B></B><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 56px; text-indent: -56px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="5" color="#000000" style="font: 18.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>From: </B></FONT><FONT face="Helvetica" size="5" style="font: 18.0px Helvetica">"J N Hiller" <<A href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net">jnhiller@earthlink.net</A>></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 50px; text-indent: -50px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="5" color="#000000" style="font: 18.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>Date: </B></FONT><FONT face="Helvetica" size="5" style="font: 18.0px Helvetica">October 10, 2007 8:49:04 AM PDT</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 31.7px; text-indent: -31.7px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="5" color="#000000" style="font: 18.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>To: </B></FONT><FONT face="Helvetica" size="5" style="font: 18.0px Helvetica">"NSRCA Mailing List" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 76px; text-indent: -76px; "><FONT face="Helvetica" size="5" color="#000000" style="font: 18.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><B>Subject: </B></FONT><FONT face="Helvetica" size="5" style="font: 18.0px Helvetica"><B>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rudder</B></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">NSRCA-discussion mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">NSRCA-discussion mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>