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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle93><font size=2 color="#993366"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Matt, I am curious. Why do you say a tail high model will likely fly
knife edge truer?<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle93><font size=2 color="#993366"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle93><font size=2 color="#993366"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle93><font size=2 color="#993366"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>rcmaster199@aol.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 04, 2007
2:20 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Hmmm,
presents to whom? If presentation to the judges is what's being
suggested....then I'd say it won't matter to me whenever I sit the chair. It
shouldn't make a hill of beans difference to any judge....but that's just me.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>In general
with the current crop of designs, the tail high model will likely fly knife
edge truer than the other possibilities, as long as the pilot/set-up fellow
didn't do something dumb with cg location</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>MattK</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: White, Chris <chris@ssd.fsi.com><br>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Thu, Oct 4 10:35 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of attack</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_77b0585e-ba6b-4754-afc9-ae73ecd77620">Do you gentlemen
think an airplane presents better in the pattern with a setup that looks:
a) on the step (tail slightly high) faster appearance.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>
b) level </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:5.5in;text-indent:.5in'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>c) tail slightly low, slower appearance.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If this is a dumb
question I apologize in advance for my curiosity</span></font><font size=2
color=navy face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;
color:navy'>J</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks, Chris</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>John Ferrell<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 04, 2007
8:35 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:
black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>It is
possible to ruin an otherwise good design with the geometry of the
thrustline/wing/stab placement as well as control surface geometry and hinging.
Top ranked pilots usually can make most anything look good though.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>It is
not unusual for full scale airplanes to display the same airspeed for
two different angles of attack. The AOA that requires the least power for a
given airspeed is generally referred to as being "on the step".
If a pattern airplane is configured in a manner that these two operating points
are close together the return to level flight presents an increased
workload. I believe the current trend of high volume fuselages makes it
difficult to achieve an "on the step" condition.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Just my
opinions of course...</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>John
Ferrell W8CCW<br>
"Life is easier if you learn to plow <br>
around the stumps"<br>
<a href="http://dixienc.us/" target="_blank">http://DixieNC.US</a></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>----- Original Message ----- </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:#E4E4E4;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>
<div style='font-color:black'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:chris@ssd.fsi.com" title="chris@ssd.fsi.com">White, Chris</a> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>
Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:47 AM</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of attack</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Understanding that a lot of misinterpretation can happen in reading
or talking about things without actually being directed in person on the
subject article, I dismissed the following story. Now after this post it has me
curious again and I would be interested to hear comments from people who may
have been told the same. </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>The story comes as a result of a couple of local pilots who were
working on a well-known $2K arf from 2005-6 era that had no reference lines on
the fuse, nor measurements in the plans referring to Thrustline or any clue as
to where to start on fuselage angle to engine-wing-stab setups.
Communication with the designer resulted in the customer being told that it
should be done by appearance. (eg: the way you wish to see your fuse
angle in level flight cruise.)</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>That seems very subject to interpretation and I would think if a
person were a few degrees off it would make a significant difference on
aerodynamic behavior during maneuvering. (mixing etc)</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>There’s probably a post on this somewhere, but Bob’s comment led me
to think of that setup dilemma. I’ve never seen or heard of an
airplane kit/arf without some reference to thrust line, until I heard my local
friends told me about this one.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Is this scenario familiar to anyone out there? </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>(Gee, do I push send or not…….ok I’ll send it.)</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
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color=navy face=Palatino><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Palatino;
color:navy'>Chris White</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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color:navy'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob Richards<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 03, 2007
7:13 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:
black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I
never meant to draw any conclusion about the knife edge performance of
airliners or bombers in my original post. I was merely stating that the reason
we PATTERN FLIERS adjust the incidences of the wing and stab (ON OUR PATTERN
PLANES) has to do with aerobatic performance. As far as I know, the reason the
designers of airliners, bombers, and most full-scale airplanes pick a incidence
value has to do mainly with efficiency in cruise.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Bob
R.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
0in;margin-left:39.75pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:
solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'><a
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</a></span></i></b> wrote:</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:43.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'>I remember watching a clip of a full size multi engine bomber type
in test flight. The test pilot banked hard to knife edge near the ground (maybe
500 ft) for some unknown reason and swiftly proceeded to put it in. Don't
remember the plane's or test pilot's names. </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:43.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:43.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'>Full scale fuselages are designed to minimize drag as much as
possible (for max range) so they tend to be pencil thin comparatively speaking.
Pencil thin fuses do not fly knife flight well nor are they intended to do so.
And the higher the weight the worse the problem. At risk of being glib, that
test pilot found the outside of the envelope.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:43.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:43.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'>MattK</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:43.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;
margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:43.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;
mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'> </span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: chris moon <<a href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">cjm767driver@hotmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>
Sent: Tue, Oct 2 4:28 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of attack</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:43.5pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;
padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_b6d597c8-f6a1-47c8-a976-7e61ea56aa74">The optimum AOA on
airliners is a function of wing design. It's the <br>
operator's job to try and stay near the optimum AOA for maximum <br>
efficiency. Lighter gross weights require either higher altitudes or <br>
lower true airspeed to be most efficient. Likewise, heavier weights will <br>
have you faster and or lower. I guess what I'm saying is that the <br>
optimum AOA is essentially dictated by wing design and we juggle the <br>
other variables in order operate the wing as efficiently as possible. <br>
<br>
I have rolled the 737, 757, 767 and A320 in the simulator and they make <br>
poor pattern planes. I'm sure there is a significant downgrade for a <br>
single roll that loses 5000+ feet of altitude. Don't even ask about <br>
knife edge performance. <br>
<br>
Chris <br>
<br>
Bob Richards wrote: <br>
> That makes sense to me. The AOA depends on the load. In an extreme <br>
> case, very lightly loaded, I don't think you would want to fly with <br>
> the fuselage in a nose down attitude, that would probably be <br>
> inefficient. Better to have it slightly nose up in cruise with a full <br>
> load. JMHO. <br>
> Of course, the reason WE would trim wing incidence would have more to <br>
> do with overall flight characteristics during aerobatics, particularly <br>
> with pitch coupling in knife edge flight. <br>
> Bob R. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> */chris moon /* wrote: <br>
> <br>
> Tried to post this before but it did not go through. <br>
> <br>
> The optimum cruise angle of attack for jetliners is somewhere between <br>
> 2.5 and 5 degrees nose up. Usually closer to 2.5 or 3 degrees for an <br>
> econ cruise. As fuel burns off and the gross weight goes down, the <br>
> airplane will need a lower angle of attack to maintain flight which <br>
> will take us away from our optimum angle (lower). So, we will either <br>
> climb to where the air is "thinner" and require a higher aoa <br>
> (angle of <br>
> attack) to get us back to the 2.5 or 3 degrees or, slow down and <br>
> maintain the lower altitude thus requiring us to increase the aoa <br>
> back <br>
> to optimum. The answer to your question is yes, a jetliner flies at a <br>
> nose high aoa in cruise. Lift from the fuselage would probably be <br>
> negligible other than "impact" lift - the force of the relative
wind <br>
> against the raised fuselage bottom. <br>
> <br>
> Chris <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________ <br>
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