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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>George</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The attitude angle of the fuselage plays an
important role for the aerobatic airplane. When the attitude is not right some
airplanes require a funky looking little T thingy sticking up behind the canopy
<G>
Nat </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:54
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane
angle of attack</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Chris,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I heard the guy that said that, and at the time I
thought he was a little cucoo, but after thinking about it I decided that it
could indeed be possible. I think you have to realize that the attitude angle
of the fuse that would look good to your eye falls into a fairly narrow range
and therefore would probably produce a negligible deleterious effect to the
overall performance of the aircraft irrespective of where it was set within
those bounds. But then again there are probably good arguements that would
contest that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=chris@ssd.fsi.com href="mailto:chris@ssd.fsi.com">White, Chris</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:47
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Understanding that
a lot of misinterpretation can happen in reading or talking about things
without actually being directed in person on the subject article, I
dismissed the following story. Now after this post it has me curious again
and I would be interested to hear comments from people who may have been
told the same. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The story comes as
a result of a couple of local pilots who were working on a well-known $2K
arf from 2005-6 era that had no reference lines on the fuse, nor
measurements in the plans referring to Thrustline or any clue as to where to
start on fuselage angle to engine-wing-stab setups. Communication with
the designer resulted in the customer being told that it should be done by
appearance. (eg: the way you wish to see your fuse angle in level
flight cruise.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">That seems very
subject to interpretation and I would think if a person were a few degrees
off it would make a significant difference on aerodynamic behavior during
maneuvering. (mixing etc)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">There’s probably a
post on this somewhere, but Bob’s comment led me to think of that setup
dilemma. I’ve never seen or heard of an airplane kit/arf without
some reference to thrust line, until I heard my local friends told me about
this one.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Is this scenario
familiar to anyone out there? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(Gee, do I push
send or not…….ok I’ll send it.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face=Palatino color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Palatino">Chris
White<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob Richards<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:13
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I never meant to draw any conclusion about the knife
edge performance of airliners or bombers in my original post. I was merely
stating that the reason we PATTERN FLIERS adjust the incidences of the wing
and stab (ON OUR PATTERN PLANES) has to do with aerobatic performance. As
far as I know, the reason the designers of airliners, bombers, and most
full-scale airplanes pick a incidence value has to do mainly with efficiency
in cruise.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Bob R.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">rcmaster199@aol.com</SPAN></I></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I remember watching a clip of a full size multi
engine bomber type in test flight. The test pilot banked hard to knife
edge near the ground (maybe 500 ft) for some unknown reason and swiftly
proceeded to put it in. Don't remember the plane's or test pilot's names.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Full scale fuselages are designed to minimize drag
as much as possible (for max range) so they tend to be pencil thin
comparatively speaking. Pencil thin fuses do not fly knife flight well nor
are they intended to do so. And the higher the weight the worse the
problem. At risk of being glib, that test pilot found the outside of the
envelope.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">MattK<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: chris moon <cjm767driver@hotmail.com><BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Sent: Tue, Oct 2 4:28 PM<BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of
attack<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_b6d597c8-f6a1-47c8-a976-7e61ea56aa74>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The optimum
AOA on airliners is a function of wing design. It's the <BR>operator's job
to try and stay near the optimum AOA for maximum <BR>efficiency. Lighter
gross weights require either higher altitudes or <BR>lower true airspeed
to be most efficient. Likewise, heavier weights will <BR>have you faster
and or lower. I guess what I'm saying is that the <BR>optimum AOA is
essentially dictated by wing design and we juggle the <BR>other variables
in order operate the wing as efficiently as possible. <BR><BR>I have
rolled the 737, 757, 767 and A320 in the simulator and they make <BR>poor
pattern planes. I'm sure there is a significant downgrade for a <BR>single
roll that loses 5000+ feet of altitude. Don't even ask about <BR>knife
edge performance. <BR><BR>Chris <BR><BR>Bob Richards wrote: <BR>> That
makes sense to me. The AOA depends on the load. In an extreme <BR>>
case, very lightly loaded, I don't think you would want to fly with
<BR>> the fuselage in a nose down attitude, that would probably be
<BR>> inefficient. Better to have it slightly nose up in cruise with a
full <BR>> load. JMHO. <BR>> Of course, the reason WE would trim
wing incidence would have more to <BR>> do with overall flight
characteristics during aerobatics, particularly <BR>> with pitch
coupling in knife edge flight. <BR>> Bob R. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
*/chris moon /* wrote: <BR>> <BR>> Tried to post this before but it
did not go through. <BR>> <BR>> The optimum cruise angle of attack
for jetliners is somewhere between <BR>> 2.5 and 5 degrees nose up.
Usually closer to 2.5 or 3 degrees for an <BR>> econ cruise. As fuel
burns off and the gross weight goes down, the <BR>> airplane will need
a lower angle of attack to maintain flight which <BR>> will take us
away from our optimum angle (lower). So, we will either <BR>> climb to
where the air is "thinner" and require a higher aoa <BR>> (angle of
<BR>> attack) to get us back to the 2.5 or 3 degrees or, slow down and
<BR>> maintain the lower altitude thus requiring us to increase the aoa
<BR>> back <BR>> to optimum. The answer to your question is yes, a
jetliner flies at a <BR>> nose high aoa in cruise. Lift from the
fuselage would probably be <BR>> negligible other than "impact" lift -
the force of the relative wind <BR>> against the raised fuselage
bottom. <BR>> <BR>> Chris <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>> <BR>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR>> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
<BR>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
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<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star
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<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_4_b6d597c8-f6a1-47c8-a976-7e61ea56aa74><PRE style="BACKGROUND: white"><TT><FONT face="Courier New" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> </SPAN></FONT></TT><FONT color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE></DIV>
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