<div><SPAN contentEditable=false style="DISPLAY: inline-block"></SPAN>Hmmm, presents to whom? If presentation to the judges is what's being suggested....then I'd say it won't matter to me whenever I sit the chair. It shouldn't make a hill of beans difference to any judge....but that's just me.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In general with the current crop of designs, the tail high model will likely fly knife edge truer than the other possibilities, as long as the pilot/set-up fellow didn't do something dumb with cg location</div>
<div> </div>
<div>MattK</div>
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-----Original Message-----<br>
From: White, Chris <chris@ssd.fsi.com><br>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Thu, Oct 4 10:35 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of attack<br>
<br>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Do you gentlemen think an airplane presents better in the pattern with a setup that looks: a) on the step (tail slightly high) faster appearance.</SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> b) level </SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 5in; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">c) tail slightly low, slower appearance.</SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If this is a dumb question I apologize in advance for my curiosity</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Wingdings color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks, Chris</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>John Ferrell<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:35 AM<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of attack</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is possible to ruin an otherwise good design with the geometry of the thrustline/wing/stab placement as well as control surface geometry and hinging. Top ranked pilots usually can make most anything look good though.</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is not unusual for full scale airplanes to display the same airspeed for two different angles of attack. The AOA that requires the least power for a given airspeed is generally referred to as being "on the step". If a pattern airplane is configured in a manner that these two operating points are close together the return to level flight presents an increased workload. I believe the current trend of high volume fuselages makes it difficult to achieve an "on the step" condition.</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Just my opinions of course...</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">John Ferrell W8CCW<br>
"Life is easier if you learn to plow <br>
around the stumps"<br>
<A href="http://dixienc.us/" target=_blank>http://DixieNC.US</A></SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message ----- </SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=chris@ssd.fsi.com href="mailto:chris@ssd.fsi.com">White, Chris</A> </SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:47 AM</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of attack</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Understanding that a lot of misinterpretation can happen in reading or talking about things without actually being directed in person on the subject article, I dismissed the following story. Now after this post it has me curious again and I would be interested to hear comments from people who may have been told the same. </SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The story comes as a result of a couple of local pilots who were working on a well-known $2K arf from 2005-6 era that had no reference lines on the fuse, nor measurements in the plans referring to Thrustline or any clue as to where to start on fuselage angle to engine-wing-stab setups. Communication with the designer resulted in the customer being told that it should be done by appearance. (eg: the way you wish to see your fuse angle in level flight cruise.)</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">That seems very subject to interpretation and I would think if a person were a few degrees off it would make a significant difference on aerodynamic behavior during maneuvering. (mixing etc)</SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">There’s probably a post on this somewhere, but Bob’s comment led me to think of that setup dilemma. I’ve never seen or heard of an airplane kit/arf without some reference to thrust line, until I heard my local friends told me about this one.</SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></div>
<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Is this scenario familiar to anyone out there? </SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(Gee, do I push send or not…….ok I’ll send it.)</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face=Palatino color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Palatino">Chris White</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob Richards<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:13 AM<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of attack</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I never meant to draw any conclusion about the knife edge performance of airliners or bombers in my original post. I was merely stating that the reason we PATTERN FLIERS adjust the incidences of the wing and stab (ON OUR PATTERN PLANES) has to do with aerobatic performance. As far as I know, the reason the designers of airliners, bombers, and most full-scale airplanes pick a incidence value has to do mainly with efficiency in cruise.</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Bob R.</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<br>
<B><I><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic"><A href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A></SPAN></I></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I remember watching a clip of a full size multi engine bomber type in test flight. The test pilot banked hard to knife edge near the ground (maybe 500 ft) for some unknown reason and swiftly proceeded to put it in. Don't remember the plane's or test pilot's names. </SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Full scale fuselages are designed to minimize drag as much as possible (for max range) so they tend to be pencil thin comparatively speaking. Pencil thin fuses do not fly knife flight well nor are they intended to do so. And the higher the weight the worse the problem. At risk of being glib, that test pilot found the outside of the envelope.</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">MattK</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: chris moon <<A href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">cjm767driver@hotmail.com</A>><br>
To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><br>
Sent: Tue, Oct 2 4:28 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of attack</SPAN></FONT></div>
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<div class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The optimum AOA on airliners is a function of wing design. It's the <br>
operator's job to try and stay near the optimum AOA for maximum <br>
efficiency. Lighter gross weights require either higher altitudes or <br>
lower true airspeed to be most efficient. Likewise, heavier weights will <br>
have you faster and or lower. I guess what I'm saying is that the <br>
optimum AOA is essentially dictated by wing design and we juggle the <br>
other variables in order operate the wing as efficiently as possible. <br>
<br>
I have rolled the 737, 757, 767 and A320 in the simulator and they make <br>
poor pattern planes. I'm sure there is a significant downgrade for a <br>
single roll that loses 5000+ feet of altitude. Don't even ask about <br>
knife edge performance. <br>
<br>
Chris <br>
<br>
Bob Richards wrote: <br>
> That makes sense to me. The AOA depends on the load. In an extreme <br>
> case, very lightly loaded, I don't think you would want to fly with <br>
> the fuselage in a nose down attitude, that would probably be <br>
> inefficient. Better to have it slightly nose up in cruise with a full <br>
> load. JMHO. <br>
> Of course, the reason WE would trim wing incidence would have more to <br>
> do with overall flight characteristics during aerobatics, particularly <br>
> with pitch coupling in knife edge flight. <br>
> Bob R. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> */chris moon /* wrote: <br>
> <br>
> Tried to post this before but it did not go through. <br>
> <br>
> The optimum cruise angle of attack for jetliners is somewhere between <br>
> 2.5 and 5 degrees nose up. Usually closer to 2.5 or 3 degrees for an <br>
> econ cruise. As fuel burns off and the gross weight goes down, the <br>
> airplane will need a lower angle of attack to maintain flight which <br>
> will take us away from our optimum angle (lower). So, we will either <br>
> climb to where the air is "thinner" and require a higher aoa <br>
> (angle of <br>
> attack) to get us back to the 2.5 or 3 degrees or, slow down and <br>
> maintain the lower altitude thus requiring us to increase the aoa <br>
> back <br>
> to optimum. The answer to your question is yes, a jetliner flies at a <br>
> nose high aoa in cruise. Lift from the fuselage would probably be <br>
> negligible other than "impact" lift - the force of the relative wind <br>
> against the raised fuselage bottom. <br>
> <br>
> Chris <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ <br>
> <br>
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