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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>George</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You are right and the effect is not
small..Generally, to introduce fuselage attitude change, and not create
new trim problems, you need to change wing and thrustline incidence
simultaneously - within reason. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>Too much
positive, wing to thrustline, is what causes pitch to canopy in the downline.
You have to carry up stab to counter the downthrust.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When you make the fuse carry a load ( yawed ), it
gets pretty adamant about wanting to go it's own direction and is a definite yaw
mix influence. It is a significant force because of the long moment
arm.
nat</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:28
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane
angle of attack</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nat,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Good point. Maybe we should call that thing
a canibalizer due to it's ability to consume erroneous datum
lines,...eh? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was thinking, the fuse attitude change will
probably also introduce some effective input to the K.E. mix ratios however
small.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What fun,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=natpenton@centurytel.net href="mailto:natpenton@centurytel.net">Nat
Penton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:09
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>George</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The attitude angle of the fuselage plays an
important role for the aerobatic airplane. When the attitude is not right
some airplanes require a funky looking little T thingy sticking up behind
the canopy
<G>
Nat </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007
12:54 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Chris,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I heard the guy that said that, and at the
time I thought he was a little cucoo, but after thinking about it I
decided that it could indeed be possible. I think you have to realize that
the attitude angle of the fuse that would look good to your eye falls into
a fairly narrow range and therefore would probably produce a negligible
deleterious effect to the overall performance of the aircraft irrespective
of where it was set within those bounds. But then again there are probably
good arguements that would contest that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=chris@ssd.fsi.com href="mailto:chris@ssd.fsi.com">White,
Chris</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007
8:47 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Understanding
that a lot of misinterpretation can happen in reading or talking about
things without actually being directed in person on the subject article,
I dismissed the following story. Now after this post it has me curious
again and I would be interested to hear comments from people who may
have been told the same. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The story comes
as a result of a couple of local pilots who were working on a well-known
$2K arf from 2005-6 era that had no reference lines on the fuse, nor
measurements in the plans referring to Thrustline or any clue as to
where to start on fuselage angle to engine-wing-stab setups.
Communication with the designer resulted in the customer being told that
it should be done by appearance. (eg: the way you wish to see your
fuse angle in level flight cruise.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">That seems very
subject to interpretation and I would think if a person were a few
degrees off it would make a significant difference on aerodynamic
behavior during maneuvering. (mixing etc)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">There’s
probably a post on this somewhere, but Bob’s comment led me to think of
that setup dilemma. I’ve never seen or heard of an airplane
kit/arf without some reference to thrust line, until I heard my local
friends told me about this one.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Is this
scenario familiar to anyone out there? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(Gee, do I push
send or not…….ok I’ll send it.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face=Palatino color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Palatino">Chris
White<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob
Richards<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:13 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I never meant to draw any conclusion about the
knife edge performance of airliners or bombers in my original post. I
was merely stating that the reason we PATTERN FLIERS adjust the
incidences of the wing and stab (ON OUR PATTERN PLANES) has to do with
aerobatic performance. As far as I know, the reason the designers of
airliners, bombers, and most full-scale airplanes pick a incidence value
has to do mainly with efficiency in
cruise.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Bob R.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">rcmaster199@aol.com</SPAN></I></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I remember watching a clip of a full size
multi engine bomber type in test flight. The test pilot banked hard to
knife edge near the ground (maybe 500 ft) for some unknown reason and
swiftly proceeded to put it in. Don't remember the plane's or test
pilot's names. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Full scale fuselages are designed to minimize
drag as much as possible (for max range) so they tend to be pencil
thin comparatively speaking. Pencil thin fuses do not fly knife flight
well nor are they intended to do so. And the higher the weight the
worse the problem. At risk of being glib, that test pilot found the
outside of the envelope.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">MattK<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">-----Original Message-----<BR>From: chris moon
<cjm767driver@hotmail.com><BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Sent: Tue, Oct 2 4:28
PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of
attack<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_b6d597c8-f6a1-47c8-a976-7e61ea56aa74>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The
optimum AOA on airliners is a function of wing design. It's the
<BR>operator's job to try and stay near the optimum AOA for maximum
<BR>efficiency. Lighter gross weights require either higher altitudes
or <BR>lower true airspeed to be most efficient. Likewise, heavier
weights will <BR>have you faster and or lower. I guess what I'm saying
is that the <BR>optimum AOA is essentially dictated by wing design and
we juggle the <BR>other variables in order operate the wing as
efficiently as possible. <BR><BR>I have rolled the 737, 757, 767 and
A320 in the simulator and they make <BR>poor pattern planes. I'm sure
there is a significant downgrade for a <BR>single roll that loses
5000+ feet of altitude. Don't even ask about <BR>knife edge
performance. <BR><BR>Chris <BR><BR>Bob Richards wrote: <BR>> That
makes sense to me. The AOA depends on the load. In an extreme <BR>>
case, very lightly loaded, I don't think you would want to fly with
<BR>> the fuselage in a nose down attitude, that would probably be
<BR>> inefficient. Better to have it slightly nose up in cruise
with a full <BR>> load. JMHO. <BR>> Of course, the reason WE
would trim wing incidence would have more to <BR>> do with overall
flight characteristics during aerobatics, particularly <BR>> with
pitch coupling in knife edge flight. <BR>> Bob R. <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> */chris moon /* wrote: <BR>> <BR>> Tried to post this
before but it did not go through. <BR>> <BR>> The optimum cruise
angle of attack for jetliners is somewhere between <BR>> 2.5 and 5
degrees nose up. Usually closer to 2.5 or 3 degrees for an <BR>>
econ cruise. As fuel burns off and the gross weight goes down, the
<BR>> airplane will need a lower angle of attack to maintain flight
which <BR>> will take us away from our optimum angle (lower). So,
we will either <BR>> climb to where the air is "thinner" and
require a higher aoa <BR>> (angle of <BR>> attack) to get us
back to the 2.5 or 3 degrees or, slow down and <BR>> maintain the
lower altitude thus requiring us to increase the aoa <BR>> back
<BR>> to optimum. The answer to your question is yes, a jetliner
flies at a <BR>> nose high aoa in cruise. Lift from the fuselage
would probably be <BR>> negligible other than "impact" lift - the
force of the relative wind <BR>> against the raised fuselage
bottom. <BR>> <BR>> Chris <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>> <BR>> _______________________________________________
<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR>> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
<BR>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A>
<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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