<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1 =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16525" name=GENERATOR><!--[if !mso]>
<STYLE>v\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
o\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
w\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
.shape {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
</STYLE>
<![endif]--><o:SmartTagType name="PersonName"
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><!--[if !mso]>
<STYLE>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</STYLE>
<![endif]-->
<STYLE>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Palatino;
panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
pre
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
tt
{font-family:"Courier New";}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY lang=EN-US vLink=blue link=blue bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nat,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Good point. Maybe we should call that thing a
canibalizer due to it's ability to consume erroneous datum lines,...eh?
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was thinking, the fuse attitude change will
probably also introduce some effective input to the K.E. mix ratios however
small.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What fun,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=natpenton@centurytel.net href="mailto:natpenton@centurytel.net">Nat
Penton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:09
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane
angle of attack</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>George</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The attitude angle of the fuselage plays an
important role for the aerobatic airplane. When the attitude is not right some
airplanes require a funky looking little T thingy sticking up behind the
canopy
<G>
Nat </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:54
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Chris,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I heard the guy that said that, and at the time
I thought he was a little cucoo, but after thinking about it I decided that
it could indeed be possible. I think you have to realize that the attitude
angle of the fuse that would look good to your eye falls into a fairly
narrow range and therefore would probably produce a negligible deleterious
effect to the overall performance of the aircraft irrespective of where it
was set within those bounds. But then again there are probably good
arguements that would contest that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=chris@ssd.fsi.com href="mailto:chris@ssd.fsi.com">White,
Chris</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007
8:47 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Understanding
that a lot of misinterpretation can happen in reading or talking about
things without actually being directed in person on the subject article, I
dismissed the following story. Now after this post it has me curious again
and I would be interested to hear comments from people who may have been
told the same. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The story comes
as a result of a couple of local pilots who were working on a well-known
$2K arf from 2005-6 era that had no reference lines on the fuse, nor
measurements in the plans referring to Thrustline or any clue as to where
to start on fuselage angle to engine-wing-stab setups. Communication
with the designer resulted in the customer being told that it should be
done by appearance. (eg: the way you wish to see your fuse angle in
level flight cruise.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">That seems very
subject to interpretation and I would think if a person were a few degrees
off it would make a significant difference on aerodynamic behavior during
maneuvering. (mixing etc)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">There’s probably
a post on this somewhere, but Bob’s comment led me to think of that setup
dilemma. I’ve never seen or heard of an airplane kit/arf
without some reference to thrust line, until I heard my local friends told
me about this one.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Is this scenario
familiar to anyone out there? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(Gee, do I push
send or not…….ok I’ll send it.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face=Palatino color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Palatino">Chris
White<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Bob Richards<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, October 03, 2007
7:13 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I never meant to draw any conclusion about the
knife edge performance of airliners or bombers in my original post. I was
merely stating that the reason we PATTERN FLIERS adjust the incidences of
the wing and stab (ON OUR PATTERN PLANES) has to do with aerobatic
performance. As far as I know, the reason the designers of airliners,
bombers, and most full-scale airplanes pick a incidence value has to do
mainly with efficiency in cruise.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Bob R.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">rcmaster199@aol.com</SPAN></I></B>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I remember watching a clip of a full size multi
engine bomber type in test flight. The test pilot banked hard to knife
edge near the ground (maybe 500 ft) for some unknown reason and swiftly
proceeded to put it in. Don't remember the plane's or test pilot's
names. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Full scale fuselages are designed to minimize
drag as much as possible (for max range) so they tend to be pencil thin
comparatively speaking. Pencil thin fuses do not fly knife flight well
nor are they intended to do so. And the higher the weight the worse the
problem. At risk of being glib, that test pilot found the outside of the
envelope.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">MattK<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">-----Original Message-----<BR>From: chris moon
<cjm767driver@hotmail.com><BR>To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>Sent: Tue, Oct 2 4:28 PM<BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of
attack<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_b6d597c8-f6a1-47c8-a976-7e61ea56aa74>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The optimum
AOA on airliners is a function of wing design. It's the <BR>operator's
job to try and stay near the optimum AOA for maximum <BR>efficiency.
Lighter gross weights require either higher altitudes or <BR>lower true
airspeed to be most efficient. Likewise, heavier weights will <BR>have
you faster and or lower. I guess what I'm saying is that the <BR>optimum
AOA is essentially dictated by wing design and we juggle the <BR>other
variables in order operate the wing as efficiently as possible.
<BR><BR>I have rolled the 737, 757, 767 and A320 in the simulator and
they make <BR>poor pattern planes. I'm sure there is a significant
downgrade for a <BR>single roll that loses 5000+ feet of altitude. Don't
even ask about <BR>knife edge performance. <BR><BR>Chris <BR><BR>Bob
Richards wrote: <BR>> That makes sense to me. The AOA depends on the
load. In an extreme <BR>> case, very lightly loaded, I don't think
you would want to fly with <BR>> the fuselage in a nose down
attitude, that would probably be <BR>> inefficient. Better to have it
slightly nose up in cruise with a full <BR>> load. JMHO. <BR>> Of
course, the reason WE would trim wing incidence would have more to
<BR>> do with overall flight characteristics during aerobatics,
particularly <BR>> with pitch coupling in knife edge flight. <BR>>
Bob R. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> */chris moon /* wrote: <BR>>
<BR>> Tried to post this before but it did not go through. <BR>>
<BR>> The optimum cruise angle of attack for jetliners is somewhere
between <BR>> 2.5 and 5 degrees nose up. Usually closer to 2.5 or 3
degrees for an <BR>> econ cruise. As fuel burns off and the gross
weight goes down, the <BR>> airplane will need a lower angle of
attack to maintain flight which <BR>> will take us away from our
optimum angle (lower). So, we will either <BR>> climb to where the
air is "thinner" and require a higher aoa <BR>> (angle of <BR>>
attack) to get us back to the 2.5 or 3 degrees or, slow down and
<BR>> maintain the lower altitude thus requiring us to increase the
aoa <BR>> back <BR>> to optimum. The answer to your question is
yes, a jetliner flies at a <BR>> nose high aoa in cruise. Lift from
the fuselage would probably be <BR>> negligible other than "impact"
lift - the force of the relative wind <BR>> against the raised
fuselage bottom. <BR>> <BR>> Chris <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>> <BR>> _______________________________________________
<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR>> <A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
<BR>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A>
<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star
Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. <A
href="http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct"
target=_blank>Play Now!</A> = <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_4_b6d597c8-f6a1-47c8-a976-7e61ea56aa74><PRE style="BACKGROUND: white"><TT><FONT face="Courier New" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> </SPAN></FONT></TT><FONT color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-TOP: 7.5pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-TOP: 7.5pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Email and
AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free <A
href="http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000970"
target=_blank>AOL Mail</A>!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-TOP: 7.5pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-TOP: 7.5pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>