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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Assuming that there were incidence
adjusters for the wing and motor then I would assume that they could be set
during trim flights. It would take a lot longer without starting positions but
the end result should be the same. Once the motor, wing and stab were set
then the fuse angle shouldn’t make any difference(?)</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
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<p><b><i><font size=4 color=navy face="Brush Script MT"><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:"Brush Script MT";color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:
italic'>Jay </span></font></i></b><b><i><font size=4 color=navy
face="Brush Script MT"><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Brush Script MT";
color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Marshall</span></font></i></b><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> [mailto:</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>White, Chris<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 03, 2007
8:47 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>NSRCA Mailing
List</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Understanding that a lot
of misinterpretation can happen in reading or talking about things without
actually being directed in person on the subject article, I dismissed the
following story. Now after this post it has me curious again and I would be
interested to hear comments from people who may have been told the same. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The story comes as a
result of a couple of local pilots who were working on a well-known $2K arf
from 2005-6 era that had no reference lines on the fuse, nor measurements in
the plans referring to Thrustline or any clue as to where to start on fuselage
angle to engine-wing-stab setups. Communication with the designer
resulted in the customer being told that it should be done by appearance.
(eg: the way you wish to see your fuse angle in level flight cruise.)</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>That seems very subject
to interpretation and I would think if a person were a few degrees off it would
make a significant difference on aerodynamic behavior during maneuvering.
(mixing etc)</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>There’s probably a
post on this somewhere, but Bob’s comment led me to think of that setup
dilemma. I’ve never seen or heard of an airplane kit/arf
without some reference to thrust line, until I heard my local friends told me
about this one.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Is this scenario familiar
to anyone out there? </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(Gee, do I push send or
not…….ok I’ll send it.)</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoAutoSig style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=navy
face=Palatino><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Palatino;color:navy'>Chris
White</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<div>
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size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob Richards<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October 03, 2007
7:13 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Airplane angle of attack</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I never meant to draw any conclusion about the knife
edge performance of airliners or bombers in my original post. I was merely
stating that the reason we PATTERN FLIERS adjust the incidences of the wing and
stab (ON OUR PATTERN PLANES) has to do with aerobatic performance. As far as I
know, the reason the designers of airliners, bombers, and most full-scale
airplanes pick a incidence value has to do mainly with efficiency in cruise.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Bob R.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>rcmaster199@aol.com</span></i></b>
wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I remember watching a clip of a full size multi engine
bomber type in test flight. The test pilot banked hard to knife edge near the
ground (maybe 500 ft) for some unknown reason and swiftly proceeded to put it
in. Don't remember the plane's or test pilot's names. </span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Full scale fuselages are designed to minimize drag as
much as possible (for max range) so they tend to be pencil thin comparatively
speaking. Pencil thin fuses do not fly knife flight well nor are they intended
to do so. And the higher the weight the worse the problem. At risk of being
glib, that test pilot found the outside of the envelope.</span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>MattK</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: chris moon <cjm767driver@hotmail.com><br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Sent: Tue, Oct 2 4:28 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane angle of attack</span></font></p>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_b6d597c8-f6a1-47c8-a976-7e61ea56aa74">
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>The
optimum AOA on airliners is a function of wing design. It's the <br>
operator's job to try and stay near the optimum AOA for maximum <br>
efficiency. Lighter gross weights require either higher altitudes or <br>
lower true airspeed to be most efficient. Likewise, heavier weights will <br>
have you faster and or lower. I guess what I'm saying is that the <br>
optimum AOA is essentially dictated by wing design and we juggle the <br>
other variables in order operate the wing as efficiently as possible. <br>
<br>
I have rolled the 737, 757, 767 and A320 in the simulator and they make <br>
poor pattern planes. I'm sure there is a significant downgrade for a <br>
single roll that loses 5000+ feet of altitude. Don't even ask about <br>
knife edge performance. <br>
<br>
Chris <br>
<br>
Bob Richards wrote: <br>
> That makes sense to me. The AOA depends on the load. In an extreme <br>
> case, very lightly loaded, I don't think you would want to fly with <br>
> the fuselage in a nose down attitude, that would probably be <br>
> inefficient. Better to have it slightly nose up in cruise with a full <br>
> load. JMHO. <br>
> Of course, the reason WE would trim wing incidence would have more to <br>
> do with overall flight characteristics during aerobatics, particularly <br>
> with pitch coupling in knife edge flight. <br>
> Bob R. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> */chris moon /* wrote: <br>
> <br>
> Tried to post this before but it did not go through. <br>
> <br>
> The optimum cruise angle of attack for jetliners is somewhere between <br>
> 2.5 and 5 degrees nose up. Usually closer to 2.5 or 3 degrees for an <br>
> econ cruise. As fuel burns off and the gross weight goes down, the <br>
> airplane will need a lower angle of attack to maintain flight which <br>
> will take us away from our optimum angle (lower). So, we will either <br>
> climb to where the air is "thinner" and require a higher aoa <br>
> (angle of <br>
> attack) to get us back to the 2.5 or 3 degrees or, slow down and <br>
> maintain the lower altitude thus requiring us to increase the aoa <br>
> back <br>
> to optimum. The answer to your question is yes, a jetliner flies at a <br>
> nose high aoa in cruise. Lift from the fuselage would probably be <br>
> negligible other than "impact" lift - the force of the relative
wind <br>
> against the raised fuselage bottom. <br>
> <br>
> Chris <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________ <br>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list <br>
> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>
<br>
> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target="_blank">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star
Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. <a
href="http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct"
target="_blank">Play Now!</a> = </span></font></p>
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<div id="AOLMsgPart_4_b6d597c8-f6a1-47c8-a976-7e61ea56aa74"><pre
style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list <a
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <a
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