<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name=ProgId content=Word.Document>
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 9">
<meta name=Originator content="Microsoft Word 9">
<link rel=File-List href="cid:filelist.xml@01C804DF.2D89C1C0">
<link rel=Edit-Time-Data href="cid:editdata.mso@01C804DF.2D89C1C0">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<title>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion</title>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:OfficeDocumentSettings>
<o:DoNotRelyOnCSS/>
</o:OfficeDocumentSettings>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<w:WordDocument>
<w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>
<w:DocumentKind>DocumentEmail</w:DocumentKind>
<w:EnvelopeVis/>
<w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/>
</w:WordDocument>
</xml><![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;
mso-font-charset:0;
mso-generic-font-family:swiss;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:1627421319 -2147483648 8 0 66047 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;
mso-font-charset:0;
mso-generic-font-family:swiss;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:536871559 0 0 0 415 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.MsoNormalIndent, li.MsoNormalIndent, div.MsoNormalIndent
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p
{margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
mso-ascii-font-family:Arial;
mso-hansi-font-family:Arial;
mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue style='tab-interval:.5in'>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Angling
more than 10 degrees could result in more deadline violations. Referring to my
CAD drawing a 10-degree exit error from the far turnaround if not corrected
would come to within about 15m, if the same flight path length is maintained as
that at 150m. Most of us will fly a flight path that uses the whole box and it
is difficult to shorten it and some of us may not correct the off-angle line
until it is too late. Ask my how I know this.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Atwood<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 02, 2007
5:54 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mid-Air discussion</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Why couldn’t ANY field
handle a 10deg can’t outward? By definition that puts the two Box lines
at 25deg from the flightline instead of 30 deg. We could probably go
20deg without ever crossing the flight line for that matter. I realize that
we’re not always in the box, but TO and Landings wouldn’t be “skewed” to begin
with, so as long as theres room to line up for entering the box, there’s no
issue.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/1/07 10:25 PM, "Lance Van Nostrand"
<patterndude@tx.rr.com> wrote:</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Most fields, including
Crowley, may not handle a 10 degree cant outwards, but an inward can't would
fit. Would this look too weird? At 150m there is no danger in
crossing the flight line, but still....<br>
--Lance</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.5in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Dr. Mike
Harrison <a href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net"><mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, September 26,
2007 3:27 PM<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mid-Air discussion<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Keith,<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>I think the 10 degree offset has merit. I
believe most fields can accommodate that. Make that 10'('-short for
degree) for each pilot from runway, effecting a net 20' change. The
centerline would be offset 10' each also. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Also, another help is to separate the lines
farther so that center manuevers do not overlap. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>It is easy enough for the CD at some contest
somewhere to try. I would encourage it. I don't know of any
contests we(you and I) have been to that this could not be implimented.
I can think of 4 midairs that would have been avoided if this
system were in place. You-2 midairs, Don Ramsey -1, Glen Watson-1.
That is a loss in the last 3 years of 7 airplanes- about $14,000.
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>I am all for this concept.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Lets try it a t Crowley.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Mike<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>ps as far as previous comments that midairs are
rare and a necessity of the sport, I disagree. They are all too
common, they effect quality of flying, they are a stupid loss, and there
has to be a reasonable way to avoid it. </span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:1.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:2.0in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Keith Black <a
href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com"><mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, September 26,
2007 1:23 PM<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mid-Air discussion<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>The problem is that one avoidance caller can't
do a good job and would sound the alarm too often due to the depth
perception issue. A second caller (spotter) at the corner of the box
would reduce alerts to a minimum and would probably allow the spotters to
anticipate collisions much sooner. I think this is at least worth
experimenting with.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>As to the offset paths, adequite offset paths
are not possible at most fields due to fly-over issues and we're already
flying off by 10 degrees as we go in and out constantly.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>As to agreeing who flies close and who flies near,
I've tried this at practice an it's amazing how often two pilots still
drift to common ground. Plus, this often would not be agreeable to both
pilots.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Keith</span></font><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> <br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:2.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> vicenterc@comcast.net <br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
; NSRCA Mailing List <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, September 26,
2007 6:52 AM<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mid-Air discussion<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Probably the avoidance callers between both lines makes sense. He
could be consider a third judge. If he sound the horn means that
both pilots has the right to bail out and they can resume the fly.
It has to be organized. The pilots flying in line A will be
instructed to go down and cut the engine. The pilots in line B will
be instructed to go up. Of course if they are rolling they will
need to stop rolling. We need to think what needs to be done when
we are flying vertical. It could be one bail to the right and the
other bail to the left or just both cut engines. The avoidance
judges will be the pilots that just finish their rounds.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I don't think that the pilot's caller can pay attention to both planes.
He is busy trying to help the pilot and reading the next manuever. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Vicente "Vince" Bortone<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:2.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:3.0in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>--------------
Original message -------------- <br>
From: "Dave Michael" <davidmichael1@comcast.net> <br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>No- if it's obvious that you were in no
danger of a mid-air then you get a zero.</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:3.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> J N Hiller <a
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"><mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, September 26,
2007 6:17 AM<br>
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mid-Air discussion<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color="#993366" face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#993366'>Thanks, now I understand. If I
didn’t hit the other airplane I obviously didn’t need to bail out and
would receive a zero.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color="#993366" face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#993366'>Jim Hiller<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color="#993366" face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#993366'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dave Michael<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 25,
2007 7:39 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>No- you can't bail in this
situation. It would be obvious to the judges and you'd receive a 0
on the manuever- and the next as well if you were to exit in the wrong
direction or orientation for the next manuever.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>----- Original Message ----- <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'><br>
From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> J N Hiller <a
href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"><mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net></a>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> NSRCA Mailing List <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:39 PM<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>If I am in the process of hosing a
maneuver can I bail out claming mid-air avoidance and re-fly it?<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>I have only had one mid-air in pattern
competition and that was pre-turnaround, on a turnaround over a quarter
mile out. I had a close one this year I saw the other airplane go by and
heard the gasps from behind without flinching. I flew in a Scale Masters
finals competition once in LasVegas with five flight lines. I have gotten
so I don’t pay any attention to other airplanes when I am flying.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>I guess I would flinch plenty, maybe even
crash if we were using that 140 DB air horn to warn of potential
midairs.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Jim Hiller<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;color:navy'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Dave Michael<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 25,
2007 4:45 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>I recall a discussion on this
subject earlier in the year. My background is heavy IMAC but I am
wanting to fly some more pattern soon. Part of the earlier
discussion was about the issue that calling avoidance and breaking from
the sequence if you think you might mid-air is allowed in IMAC but not in
pattern.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>In 10+ years of IMAC competition-
maybe 40-50 contests - I can only think of a few mid-airs, maybe three or
so. Believe me when I say that calling avoidance and breaking the
sequence is not something that you want to do in the heat of competition-
it can really throw off a good sequence. Having said that, with
fewer mid-airs in IMAC perhaps we can conclude that allowing
sequence breaks to avoid potential mid-airs makes sense for pattern too. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Dave Michael<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>----- Original Message ----- <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'><br>
From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> Keith Black <a
href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com"><mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com></a>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> NSRCA Mailing List <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:47 PM<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><b><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'> [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Following my mid-air at the N.
Dallas contest this weekend there's been an RCU thread started on the
subject. From this discussion an interesting idea has evolved. For those
who would like to read the thread here's the link: <a
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6409493/anchors_6413018/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#6413018">http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6409493/anchors_6413018/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#6413018</a><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>If you'd just like to hear the
idea I'll paste my RCU posting below:<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>This is my third mid-air in four
seasons. My first may have been avoided, but the last two were a complete
shock to both me and my caller. In fact, in mid-air #2 my caller said
"you're good" (meaning we were not going to hit). The other
pilot's caller walked up to me and apologized saying that he told the
other pilot that he was in the clear. Therefore, I don't know how
effective a third "spotter" sitting between the lines could be.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>That being said, two recent
events have given me an idea of how we might be able to greatly improve
this problem. The first light bulb was Vicente's suggestion of the
spotter that warns the pilots. The second event was my walk out to pick
up the fragments of my beloved Brio. As I was walking back I stood for a
bit to observe the planes looking down the flight path. It was amazing
how clearly you can see each plane as it moves in and out from the flight
line. <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>So here's the idea: What if we
sat a spotter at the corner of the box to watch plane separation in the
distance out dimension and then had the other spotter sitting between the
judges (or even back under the cover) watching in the right to left
dimension. These two spotters could use radios with headsets and
continually talk to each other. There are many times that planes appear
to be close to a mid-air from the flight line viewpoint, however, the number
of times that both spotters would be alarmed should be! fairly minimal.
When this occurs the spotter could sound an alarm (this deserves
discussion as to the details) and each pilot could peel off of their
course. If one pilot froze the collision may still be avoided by just one
pilot taking action. Sure, this could cause a mid-air, but viewing from
two dimensions should help in alerting only when an impact is probable.<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Some have stated that they've
seen very few mid-airs, but my experience in D6 and NATS is that at least
70% (if not more) of the contests I've attended have had mid-airs. I'm
not going to run away crying and quit the hobby due to this mid-air, but
reducing such losses would be a benefit to us all!<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Keith Black</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p align=center style='margin-right:3.0in;margin-left:3.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=4 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-right:3.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=4 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p style='margin-right:3.0in;margin-left:3.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p align=center style='margin-right:3.0in;margin-left:3.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=4 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-right:3.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=4 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p style='margin-right:3.0in;margin-left:3.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-right:3.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:3.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:3.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:2.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:2.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:2.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><a
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><font
size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:black'>
<hr size=3 width="95%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=1 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>