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<TITLE>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion</TITLE>
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<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>Why couldn’t ANY field handle a 10deg can’t outward? By definition that puts the two Box lines at 25deg from the flightline instead of 30 deg. We could probably go 20deg without ever crossing the flight line for that matter. I realize that we’re not always in the box, but TO and Landings wouldn’t be “skewed” to begin with, so as long as theres room to line up for entering the box, there’s no issue.<BR>
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On 10/1/07 10:25 PM, "Lance Van Nostrand" <patterndude@tx.rr.com> wrote:<BR>
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</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE="Arial">Most fields, including Crowley, may not handle a 10 degree cant outwards, but an inward can't would fit. Would this look too weird? At 150m there is no danger in crossing the flight line, but still....<BR>
--Lance<BR>
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----- Original Message ----- <BR>
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<B>From:</B> Dr. Mike Harrison <a href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net"><mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net></a> <BR>
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<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <BR>
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<B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:27 PM<BR>
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<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">Keith,<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">I think the 10 degree offset has merit. I believe most fields can accommodate that. Make that 10'('-short for degree) for each pilot from runway, effecting a net 20' change. The centerline would be offset 10' each also. <BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">Also, another help is to separate the lines farther so that center manuevers do not overlap. <BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">It is easy enough for the CD at some contest somewhere to try. I would encourage it. I don't know of any contests we(you and I) have been to that this could not be implimented. I can think of 4 midairs that would have been avoided if this system were in place. You-2 midairs, Don Ramsey -1, Glen Watson-1. That is a loss in the last 3 years of 7 airplanes- about $14,000. <BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">I am all for this concept.<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">Lets try it a t Crowley.<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">Mike<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">ps as far as previous comments that midairs are rare and a necessity of the sport, I disagree. They are all too common, they effect quality of flying, they are a stupid loss, and there has to be a reasonable way to avoid it. <BR>
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----- Original Message ----- <BR>
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<B>From:</B> Keith Black <a href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com"><mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com></a> <BR>
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<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <BR>
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<B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:23 PM<BR>
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<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">The problem is that one avoidance caller can't do a good job and would sound the alarm too often due to the depth perception issue. A second caller (spotter) at the corner of the box would reduce alerts to a minimum and would probably allow the spotters to anticipate collisions much sooner. I think this is at least worth experimenting with.<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">As to the offset paths, adequite offset paths are not possible at most fields due to fly-over issues and we're already flying off by 10 degrees as we go in and out constantly.<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">As to agreeing who flies close and who flies near, I've tried this at practice an it's amazing how often two pilots still drift to common ground. Plus, this often would not be agreeable to both pilots.<BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">Keith</FONT><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
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----- Original Message ----- <BR>
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<B>From:</B> vicenterc@comcast.net <BR>
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<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> ; NSRCA Mailing List <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <BR>
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<B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:52 AM<BR>
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<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<BR>
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Probably the avoidance callers between both lines makes sense. He could be consider a third judge. If he sound the horn means that both pilots has the right to bail out and they can resume the fly. It has to be organized. The pilots flying in line A will be instructed to go down and cut the engine. The pilots in line B will be instructed to go up. Of course if they are rolling they will need to stop rolling. We need to think what needs to be done when we are flying vertical. It could be one bail to the right and the other bail to the left or just both cut engines. The avoidance judges will be the pilots that just finish their rounds.<BR>
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I don't think that the pilot's caller can pay attention to both planes. He is busy trying to help the pilot and reading the next manuever. <BR>
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Regards,<BR>
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Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR>
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</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>
From: "Dave Michael" <davidmichael1@comcast.net> <BR>
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</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">No- if it's obvious that you were in no danger of a mid-air then you get a zero.<BR>
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----- Original Message ----- <BR>
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<B>From:</B> J N Hiller <a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"><mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net></a> <BR>
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<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <BR>
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<B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 26, 2007 6:17 AM<BR>
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<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<BR>
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</FONT></SPAN><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT COLOR="#993366"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Thanks, now I understand. If I didn’t hit the other airplane I obviously didn’t need to bail out and would receive a zero.<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT COLOR="#993366"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Jim Hiller<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>-----Original Message-----<BR>
<B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave Michael<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:39 PM<BR>
<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>No- you can't bail in this situation. It would be obvious to the judges and you'd receive a 0 on the manuever- and the next as well if you were to exit in the wrong direction or orientation for the next manuever.<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B> <BR>
From:</B> J N Hiller <a href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"><mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net></a> <BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:39 PM<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<BR>
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</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE="5"><FONT FACE="Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:16.0px'> <BR>
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</SPAN><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>If I am in the process of hosing a maneuver can I bail out claming mid-air avoidance and re-fly it?<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>I have only had one mid-air in pattern competition and that was pre-turnaround, on a turnaround over a quarter mile out. I had a close one this year I saw the other airplane go by and heard the gasps from behind without flinching. I flew in a Scale Masters finals competition once in LasVegas with five flight lines. I have gotten so I don’t pay any attention to other airplanes when I am flying.<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>I guess I would flinch plenty, maybe even crash if we were using that 140 DB air horn to warn of potential midairs.<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Jim Hiller<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>-----Original Message-----<BR>
<B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave Michael<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 25, 2007 4:45 PM<BR>
<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE="5"><FONT FACE="Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:16.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>I recall a discussion on this subject earlier in the year. My background is heavy IMAC but I am wanting to fly some more pattern soon. Part of the earlier discussion was about the issue that calling avoidance and breaking from the sequence if you think you might mid-air is allowed in IMAC but not in pattern.<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE="5"><FONT FACE="Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:16.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>In 10+ years of IMAC competition- maybe 40-50 contests - I can only think of a few mid-airs, maybe three or so. Believe me when I say that calling avoidance and breaking the sequence is not something that you want to do in the heat of competition- it can really throw off a good sequence. Having said that, with fewer mid-airs in IMAC perhaps we can conclude that allowing sequence breaks to avoid potential mid-airs makes sense for pattern too. <BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Dave Michael<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B> <BR>
From:</B> Keith Black <a href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com"><mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com></a> <BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></a> <BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:47 PM<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Following my mid-air at the N. Dallas contest this weekend there's been an RCU thread started on the subject. From this discussion an interesting idea has evolved. For those who would like to read the thread here's the link: <a href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6409493/anchors_6413018/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#6413018">http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6409493/anchors_6413018/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#6413018</a><BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>If you'd just like to hear the idea I'll paste my RCU posting below:<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="5"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:16.0px'>This is my third mid-air in four seasons. My first may have been avoided, but the last two were a complete shock to both me and my caller. In fact, in mid-air #2 my caller said "you're good" (meaning we were not going to hit). The other pilot's caller walked up to me and apologized saying that he told the other pilot that he was in the clear. Therefore, I don't know how effective a third "spotter" sitting between the lines could be.<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="5"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:16.0px'>That being said, two recent events have given me an idea of how we might be able to greatly improve this problem. The first light bulb was Vicente's suggestion of the spotter that warns the pilots. The second event was my walk out to pick up the fragments of my beloved Brio. As I was walking back I stood for a bit to observe the planes looking down the flight path. It was amazing how clearly you can see each plane as it moves in and out from the flight line. <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="5"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:16.0px'>So here's the idea: What if we sat a spotter at the corner of the box to watch plane separation in the distance out dimension and then had the other spotter sitting between the judges (or even back under the cover) watching in the right to left dimension. These two spotters could use radios with headsets and continually talk to each other. There are many times that planes appear to be close to a mid-air from the flight line viewpoint, however, the number of times that both spotters would be alarmed should be! fairly minimal. When this occurs the spotter could sound an alarm (this deserves discussion as to the details) and each pilot could peel off of their course. If one pilot froze the collision may still be avoided by just one pilot taking action. Sure, this could cause a mid-air, but viewing from two dimensions should help in alerting only when an impact is probable.<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="5"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:16.0px'>Some have stated that they've seen very few mid-airs, but my experience in D6 and NATS is that at least 70% (if not more) of the contests I've attended have had mid-airs. I'm not going to run away crying and quit the hobby due to this mid-air, but reducing such losses would be a benefit to us all!<BR>
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</SPAN><FONT SIZE="5"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:16.0px'>Keith Black<BR>
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