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<title>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Mid-Air discussion</title>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Yes Tony.
It makes a lot more sense than designating someone to anticipate a potential
midair far enough in advance to call for an official flight interrupt for the
pilots to initiate avoidance maneuvers. The impact would likely occur before
the horn sounded. The flight interruption if sounded unnecessarily would likely
have a negative effect on the pilot’s flight scores. Attached is a PDF file
printed from a CAD layout showing the flight lines angled 5 degrees from two
flight stations 30 m apart. Those of us that regularly fly 10 degrees off line
generally initiate the error exiting a turnaround which even if parallel to the
other line of flight would have sufficient separation. The close flight I had
this season was with a master’s pilot (I fly advanced). Prior to the close call
in the center we went up on a turnaround together with little more than the flight
line separation between us. Although it looked like impending doom as I
remember one was a stall turn and the other a half square resulting in no exit
conflict, which I was aware of at the time and totally comfortable with. I surely
would not have wanted to hear the abort horn.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Got to go
fly now.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jim Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle19><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Atwood<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, September 26,
2007 7:56 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mid-Air discussion</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Offsetting the flight
lines by 10deg where it can be done has a HUGE impact. That reduces the
mid-air “zone” by about 80%. Spotters really aren’t all that
practical. The few times that you can really “see” a mid-air coming is
when both planes are tracking in the same direction in similar maneuvers and
you see it coming...those mid-airs are seldom the catastrophic ones that total
the aircraft. It’s the head on collisions that no one sees that put
both planes in the ground. There’s maybe .5 seconds to see it coming IF
you were just looking for that, and there’s no way to react to that.<br>
<br>
IMAC events call avoidance more easily because A) the planes are flying MUCH
slower, B) they’re MUCH bigger so it’s easier to gauge their depth and C)
they’re less often in the exact same plane of reference.<br>
<br>
I really think the offset...where it can be done, would provide the most
benefit. Very easy to accomplish at most fields.<br>
<br>
-M<br>
<br>
<br>
On 9/26/07 10:43 AM, "Tony" <tony@radiosouthrc.com> wrote:</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Or we can go to
less-rounds per event and fly one at a time. They do that in Europe for
exactly that reason.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tony Stillman, President<br>
Radio South, Inc.<br>
139 Altama Connector, Box 322<br>
Brunswick, GA 31525<br>
1-800-962-7802<br>
tony@radiosouthrc.com</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p style='margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jay Marshall<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 25, 2007
6:52 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'NSRCA Mailing List'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Mid-Air discussion<br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’ll say again - the easiest way to prevent
mid-air collisions is to fly in different (geometric) planes. If the flight
planes are intersected 10 deg. to each other then the probability of collision
is greatly reduced.<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><b><i><font size=4 color=navy face="Brush Script MT"><span
style='font-size:14.5pt;font-family:"Brush Script MT";color:navy;font-weight:
bold;font-style:italic'>Jay Marshall</span></font></i></b><font size=2
color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;
color:navy'> <br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Keith Black<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 25, 2007
5:48 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [NSRCA-discussion]
Mid-Air discussion<br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>Following my mid-air at the N. Dallas contest
this weekend there's been an RCU thread started on the subject. >From this
discussion an interesting idea has evolved. For those who would like to read
the thread here's the link: <a
href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6409493/anchors_6413018/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#6413018">http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6409493/anchors_6413018/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#6413018</a><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:black'>If you'd just like to hear the idea I'll paste
my RCU posting below:<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><br>
</span></font><font size=4 color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>This is my third mid-air in four
seasons. My first may have been avoided, but the last two were a complete shock
to both me and my caller. In fact, in mid-air #2 my caller said "you're
good" (meaning we were not going to hit). The other pilot's caller walked
up to me and apologized saying that he told the other pilot that he was in the
clear. Therefore, I don't know how effective a third "spotter"
sitting between the lines could be.<br>
That being said, two recent events have given me an idea of how we might be
able to greatly improve this problem. The first light bulb was Vicente's
suggestion of the spotter that warns the pilots. The second event was my walk
out to pick up the fragments of my beloved Brio. As I was walking back I stood
for a bit to observe the planes looking down the flight path. It was amazing
how clearly you can see each plane as it moves in and out from the flight line.
<br>
So here's the idea: What if we sat a spotter at the corner of the box to watch
plane separation in the distance out dimension and then had the other spotter
sitting between the judges (or even back under the cover) watching in the right
to left dimension. These two spotters could use radios with headsets and
continually talk to each other. There are many times that planes appear to be
close to a mid-air from the flight line viewpoint, however, the number of times
that both spotters would be alarmed should be fairly minimal. When this occurs
the spotter could sound an alarm (this deserves discussion as to the details)
and each pilot could peel off of their course. If one pilot froze the collision
may still be avoided by just one pilot taking action. Sure, this could cause a
mid-air, but viewing from two dimensions should help in alerting only when an
impact is probable.<br>
Some have stated that they've seen very few mid-airs, but my experience in D6
and NATS is that at least 70% (if not more) of the contests I've attended have
had mid-airs. I'm not going to run away crying and quit the hobby due to this
mid-air, but reducing such losses would be a benefit to us all!<br>
Keith Black</span></font><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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