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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Morten</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>You raise an interesting question from a couple of
perspectives. We consider the "box" rectangular, defined by the ground on the
bottom, verticals at the 60 deg lines on the ends, and with a horizontal 60 deg
top. Logically, the 60 deg top is determined at center and will be about 300m
(~1000 ft) @ 175m distant. However, the rules state "vertical height shall
not exceed 60 deg" with no mention of center. So - 60 deg at the corner
poles will be a great deal higher. It's very difficult for either the pilot or
judge to extrapolate the center height to the end poles, and using the 60 deg
guideline will result in a "top of box" line that's vee
shaped. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The rules don't require that the top of high
maneuvers reach the top of the box - only that they stay within the box.
It's the pilots choice to establish a maneuver size that fits the flight
position (distance) in the box, with no penalty for flying somewhat smaller than
the box allows. Of course, figuring out just how to present a new sequence is
part of the fun. As you suggest, maintaining a consistent base, middle, top line
will generally score best, as this concept is long engrained (but not well
defined). The rules state "when appropriate, entry and exit of center
maneuvers shall be at the same altitude", it seems this refers to the same
maneuver - not necessarily all center maneuvers (but some see it this
way). It also seems reasonable that a pilot should be able to choose a low
base line for a very tall maneuver to best utilize the box and then choose a
higher base line to best present a complex rolling maneuver, for example.
This allowance seems inferred by the phrase "positioning adjustments
in altitude are allowed in turn-around maneuvers". (However - some consider
these "adjustment" only as "corrections".)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Like I said - good questions. I have my opinion on each
and know the conventions, yet the wording of the rules isn't specific enough to
support a strong argument either way.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>From a practical viewpoint, I reviewed altitude
measurements I've recorded flying the triangle in F07 and find they averaged
around 225m (~740 ft) - I haven't gathered data, but I think I'm sizing the
triangles in P/F-09 similarly. This allows a diameter of around 90m (~300
ft) for the top of the 9 without pushing the top of the box too much -
certainly within the limits of being able to judge height at a turn-around
position. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>A very good question regarding the penalty for running out
of time between the last maneuver and landing - I see nothing to address this in
the last version of the 2008 Sporting Code that I have (may not the the
latest).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=morten@laugesen.nu href="mailto:morten@laugesen.nu">Morten
Laugesen</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 07, 2007 4:11
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2008 FAI
F3A Maneuvers</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Don,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for the feed back, and I guess that is how
it will be flown anyway. It's just unusual to go higher than the
normal top-line, I'm not aware that this has been done before in the FAI
schedules. Anyway it would be nice with a more comprehensive manoeuvre
description to clear things up a bit. As has also been mentioned before the
text description of manoeuvre #13 is simply wrong. In my opinion it should say
"full integrated roll in the transition between loop no. 1 and no. 2"
instead.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Also another question. Say you run out of time (8
minutes) before touching down, will they then give you a zero for
manoeuvre #17 since the landing is not scored anymore? Usually the judge will
have given his score for the final manoeuvre before the
landing...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Kind regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Morten Laugesen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>e-mail: </FONT><A
href="mailto:morten@laugesen.nu"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>morten@laugesen.nu</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>URL: </FONT><A href="http://morten.laugesen.nu"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>http://morten.laugesen.nu</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=don.ramsey@suddenlink.net
href="mailto:don.ramsey@suddenlink.net">Don Ramsey</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 07, 2007 8:08
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2008
FAI F3A Maneuvers</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Morten,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I don't think there is a higher line on maneuver
8. The figure 9 (maneuver 8) does start on a high line and
does go higher but that higher point is never flown, it is only
touched. Since it is a turn around maneuver the high box is not going
to be a factor. The maneuver will get very high but should not affect
the judging (I think).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Don</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=morten@laugesen.nu href="mailto:morten@laugesen.nu">Morten
Laugesen</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 07, 2007
12:37 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2008
FAI F3A Maneuvers</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=2>Hi,</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=2><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Now that the
discussion about the new schedules has come up I thought that I would ask
about your opinion regarding a sequence of manoeuvres in P-09. In
</SPAN><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Denmark</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN
lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"> we have been discussing how
to interpret manoeuvres 6, 7 and 8.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>They
are:<BR><BR>6: Half outside loop, inverted
entry<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>7: Triangle
loop, with ˝ rolls in each leg, inverted
exit<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>8: Figure
9, two ˝ rolls in opposite direction on downline, inverted
entry<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=2></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>What we are
thinking is that if done this way, and if the exit of the half outside
loop and the entry to the triangle loop are done at the normal upper
flight line (top-line) a second even higher top-line will be introduced
when performing the Figure 9? My understanding of the rules is that you
have a bottom-, a middle- and a top-line in the box, but now it seems we
have introduced a second top-line?<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face=Arial
size=2> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>If the
triangle loop is actually the bottom half of an hour-glass, and hence
entered at half height things make better sense, however then it could
possibly be difficult to get time to perform the half rolls on each leg of
the triangle loop…? It can be done, but it wouldn’t look very
graceful?<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><o:p><FONT face=Arial
size=2> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Any ideas
or opinions on this matter?<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Kind regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Morten Laugesen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>e-mail: </FONT><A
href="mailto:morten@laugesen.nu"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>morten@laugesen.nu</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>URL: </FONT><A href="http://morten.laugesen.nu"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>http://morten.laugesen.nu</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w.
kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 07, 2007
7:22 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
2008 FAI F3A Maneuvers</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yeah John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I got thinking about this yesterday after I
mailed the question and came up with the only way it would make sense
and yes you're right, the Aresti shows it as you state.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for enlightening me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jgghome@comcast.net href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">John
Gayer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 07, 2007
12:03 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
2008 FAI F3A Maneuvers</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>The only way the maneuver makes sense is if the
roll is the last 45 degrees of the first loop and the first 45 degrees
of the second loop. It is clearer in the Arresti
diagram.<BR>John<BR><BR>Steven Maxwell wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid706686.66899.qm@web58414.mail.re3.yahoo.com
type="cite">
<DIV>Ok what am I missing #13 P-09 "2 outside loops from the top
<FONT face=Arial size=2>full integrated roll over top 90 degrees of
second loop" wouldn't the second loop be completed before the 90
degrees of the roll?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Steve
Maxwell</FONT><BR><BR><B><I>Earl Haury <A
class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net"><ejhaury@comcast.net></A></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Karl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>My fault - not Don's, the magic of PC
copying.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kgamueller@rogers.com
href="mailto:kgamueller@rogers.com">Karl G. Mueller</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=donramsey@gmail.com
href="mailto:donramsey@gmail.com">Don Ramsey</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:47 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2008 FAI F3A Maneuvers</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Don,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The scoresheet for the finals schedule 09
reads P0-9</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>instead of F-09.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Karl G. Mueller<BR><A
href="mailto:kgamueller@rogers.com">kgamueller@rogers.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; moz-background-clip: initial; moz-background-origin: initial; moz-background-inline-policy: initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=don.ramsey@suddenlink.net
href="mailto:don.ramsey@suddenlink.net">Don Ramsey</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, September 06, 2007 12:46 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] 2008 FAI F3A Maneuvers</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The 2008-2009 F3A maneuvers are posted on
the judging section of the NSRCA site. Score sheets are
also there.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><A
href="http://www.nsrca.org/competition/judging/judging.htm">http://www.nsrca.org/competition/judging/judging.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Don</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
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