[From nobody Tue Aug 28 11:16:33 2007 From: "J N Hiller" <jnhiller@earthlink.net> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times. Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:15:59 +0000 Content-Type: Multipart/mixed; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21570_1188328580_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21570_1188328580_1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0069_01C7E95C.46566A80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C7E95C.46566A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Great, professional callers too. Jim Hiller -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jerry Stebbins Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:00 AM To: NSRCA Mailing List Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times. Seems like we are flogging the dead horse for some other reason than the "Spectators". TOC comparisons are a reach. Most "spectators" are other contestants/helpers. Few wannabes come out unless they are working, and if they have the pattern itch they would be there anyway. Those are they ones we can talk to/explain/cultivate/ let fly after the contest!. Maybe the old days of short shorts callers could be brought back by developing and forming a set of touring callers--how about calling the Dallas Cheerleaders and see if they would be interested. THAT would probably increase our "Spectator" base. :) :) Wonder what the underlying reason is for this thread-anyone willing to fess-up? Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: John Pavlick <mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com> To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times. Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators at a Pattern contest? Where are they? Do wives and girlfriends count? John Pavlick http://www.idseng.com ----- Original Message ----- From: John Gayer <mailto:jgghome@comcast.net> To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times. Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots with airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing handouts on the patterns and pattern in general. Not having been to an IMAC contest in years, are they doing better in providing information to spectators? Are they getting large crowds for the unknowns and freestyles? The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I recall, with raw scores and handed out the patterns being flown. Must be why they had such large crowds :-) John Mark Atwood wrote: To take that a step further...when was the last time you saw them televise the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which is basically what we fly...the EXACT same routine. They’ve dropped the “figures” portion of the competition completely. But I still think it would be entertaining to see scores...though I agree it is likely to create problems. -M On 8/27/07 11:30 PM, "JShulman" <jshulman@cfl.rr.com> <mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com> wrote: Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring? Lets face it, if you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much that can be done to spice it up. It's still the same sequences being flown flight after flight. As for the scoring real-time... the only one's that it would matter to would be the one's participating in the contest. Not necessarily just the one's in the class, but the one's that stay the extra day to watch. Until we throw in some sort of freestyle or combat, it's just pattern. Who would watch figure skating without music? Regards, Jason www.jasonshulman.com <http://www.jasonshulman.com> www.shulmanaviation.com <http://www.shulmanaviation.com> www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com> -----Original Message----- From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org> [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D> On Behalf Of Lance Van Nostrand Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:17 PM To: NSRCA Mailing List Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times? I'm willing to try things that would make pattern more spectator friendly. I think the reason the lone spectator talking during a flight has such an effect is because its a lone person and talking loud enough that judges can hear is rare. If it became common place we would soon tune it out and spectators would be better able to follow the contest. Your points are excellent. In my area we don't require judges to initial their scoresheets. I don'tunderstand this and I always initial mine, but I also sometimes put downgrade shorthand next to my scores for pilots that enjoy knowing why they got a certain score. The occasions that pilots have approached me afterwards were supportive and spiritbuilding. --Lance ----- Original Message ----- From: Woodward, Jim <mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com> <mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com> To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> <mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times? I heard a story from this years nats where one of the Advanced competitors that was in contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver, and another pilot who was also in contention (and watching) yelled out an inappropriate remark. I think that audience input or influence is something we should steer away from for precision aerobatics. We certainly do not need it to be quiet like for golf, but direct statements meant to be heard by the judges are not good. Although slightly off topic – what I do think we should do is post all raw scores every flight for every pilot (I think this is done for the WC). I think this would provide the following opportunities: 1. The availability of the raw scores would in itself represent and INCREDIBLE judges training tool. Seasoned and new competitor alike could watch flights together, make comments and discuss, then go back later and see if what they thought they saw was in line with the scores for that flight. There is all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate judging training (.. ideas welcome). 2. Posting of raw scores would allow “judges” to after-the-fact see how they performed compared to their judging partners. There is all kinds of good value that could come from this. Whether noted privately or discussed between each other, it is good from time to time to check yourself. 3. Posting of raw scores would help keep the honest man honest. By posting raw scores, I think there would be a reduction of bias any way you cut it: Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, “teams”, regionality, or other bias’ would be removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of time that the judges scores would be posted. 4. And most importantly, increased “transparency” in the system helps the seasoned and new comer alike understand the process of the contest, scoring, and “how” the 1000, 900, or 800’s came to be. I believe that no matter whom you are, you want to leave a contest and feel like you (& everyone) was dealt a fair hand. Transparency is the key to this. 5. OK – last one – it takes “scoring” which is a topic of much discussion during and after a pattern contest in case you haven’t heard, away from a shadowy discussion, and brings to the open this topic which everyone is already discussing. This would do a lot to remove ammunition from the conspiracy theorist and such whom all of our districts have. Transparency is good J I write none of this from the sour-grapes perspective. I love this stuff. I think the potential benefits from posting the raws would out weight the potential bad, provide more transparency for the competitor and also provide judges training. Thanks, Jim W. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and proprietary information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient(s), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. _____ From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org> [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D> On Behalf Of JShulman Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 1:49 PM To: NSRCA Mailing List Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the times? Probably the best reason not to have it...lol. It's bad enough when we screw-up... I mean when a pilot screws-up and you hear all the OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when someone gets judged for a maneuver that they are doing all wrong! Total Chaos! Regards, Jason www.jasonshulman.com <http://www.jasonshulman.com> www.shulmanaviation.com <http://www.shulmanaviation.com> www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com> On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and aahhhs" from the spectators. :) _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _____ _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C7E95C.46566A80 Content-Type: text/html; 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color:navy;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:1679112783; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1958148074 1420991756 1183641830 1601468316 = 799580404 1492390950 1046885482 900490882 713564530 -1776147246;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1027"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue = style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Gr= eat, professional callers too.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Ji= m Hiller<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle21><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!= [if = !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<b><span = style=3D'font-weight: bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jerry Stebbins<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, August 28, = 2007 6:00 AM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing = List<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the times.</span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><![if = !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Seems = like we are flogging the dead horse for some other reason than the = &quot;Spectators&quot;. TOC comparisons are a reach. Most &quot;spectators&quot; are other contestants/helpers. Few wannabes come out unless they are working, and = if they have the pattern itch they would be there anyway. Those are they ones we = can talk to/explain/cultivate/ let fly after the contest!. = </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Maybe = the old days of short shorts callers could be brought back by developing and = forming&nbsp;a set of touring callers--how about&nbsp;calling the Dallas Cheerleaders = and see if they would be interested. THAT would probably increase our &quot;Spectator&quot; base. :) :)&nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Wonder = what the underlying reason is for this thread-anyone willing to = fess-up?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jerry</span></font><o:p></o:= p></p> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- = Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:40.2pt;background:#E4E4E4;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:sol= id black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'> <div style=3D'font-color:black'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a = href=3D"mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com" title=3D"jpavlick@idseng.com">John Pavlick</a> = <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span><= /font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" title=3D"nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span= ></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</s= pan></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the = times.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><![if = !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Uh, what = are you guys talking about? Spectators at a Pattern contest? Where are they? Do&nbsp;wives and girlfriends count?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>John = Pavlick<br> <a = href=3D"http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com</a></span></font><o:= p></o:p></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- = Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:44.4pt;background:#E4E4E4;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:sol= id black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'> <div style=3D'font-color:black'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a = href=3D"mailto:jgghome@comcast.net" title=3D"jgghome@comcast.net">John Gayer</a> = <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span><= /font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" title=3D"nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span= ></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</s= pan></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't behind the = times.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><![if = !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Having a large = scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots with airplanes) and raw scores would = help. So would providing handouts on the patterns and pattern in general.<br> <br> Not having been to an IMAC contest in years, are they doing better in = providing information to spectators?&nbsp; Are they getting large crowds for the = unknowns and freestyles?<br> The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I recall, with = raw scores and handed out the patterns being flown.<br> Must be why they had such large crowds <span class=3Dmoz-smiley-s1>:-) = </span><br> John<br> <br> Mark Atwood wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom: 12.0pt;margin-left:80.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black = 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>To = take that a step further...when was the last time you saw them televise the Figure = Skating compulsory rounds...which is basically what we fly...the EXACT same = routine. &nbsp;They&#8217;ve dropped the &#8220;figures&#8221; portion of the = competition completely. &nbsp;<br> <br> But I still think it would be entertaining to see scores...though I = agree it is likely to create problems.<br> <br> -M<br> <br> <br> <br> On 8/27/07 11:30 PM, &quot;JShulman&quot; <a = href=3D"mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com">&lt;jshulman@cfl.rr.com&gt;</a> wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:116.4pt;border:none;mso-border-lef= t-alt: solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font = size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:blue'>Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring? = Lets face it, if you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much that can = be done to spice it up. It's still the same sequences being flown flight after = flight. <br> <br> As for the scoring real-time... the only one's that it would matter to = would be the one's participating in the contest. Not necessarily just the one's = in the class, but the one's that stay the extra day to watch. Until we throw in = some sort of freestyle or combat, it's just pattern. Who would watch figure = skating without music? <br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'>Regards,<br> Jason<br> <a href=3D"http://www.jasonshulman.com">www.jasonshulman.com</a><br> <a = href=3D"http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br> <a href=3D"http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</a> = </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:1.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:152.4pt;border:none;mso-border-lef= t-alt: solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font = size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> &nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion= -bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> &nbsp;[<a = href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-= discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a><b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Lance Van = &nbsp;Nostrand<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, August 27, = 2007 10:17 PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA &nbsp;Mailing = List<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the &nbsp;times?<br> <br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family: Arial'>I'm willing to try things that would make pattern &nbsp;more = spectator friendly. &nbsp;I think the reason the lone spectator talking = &nbsp;during a flight has such an effect is because its a lone person and &nbsp;talking = loud enough that judges can hear is rare. &nbsp;If it became common = &nbsp;place we would soon tune it out and spectators would be better able to follow = &nbsp;the contest.<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family: Arial'>Your points are excellent. &nbsp;In my area we &nbsp;don't = require judges to initial their scoresheets. &nbsp;I don'tunderstand &nbsp;this = and I always initial mine, but I also sometimes put downgrade shorthand = &nbsp;next to my scores for pilots that enjoy knowing why they got a certain = &nbsp;score. &nbsp;The occasions that pilots have approached me afterwards were &nbsp;supportive and spiritbuilding.<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family: Arial'>--Lance<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:188.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:= solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br> ----- Original Message ----- <br> &nbsp;<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> &nbsp;Woodward, Jim = <a href=3D"mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">&lt;mailto:jim.woodward@baesy= stems.com&gt;</a> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List <a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">&lt;mailto:nsrca-discuss= ion@lists.nsrca.org&gt;</a> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, August 27, = 2007 1:08 &nbsp;PM<br> &nbsp;<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion] Are we &nbsp;behind the times?<br> &nbsp;<br> <br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> <br> </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>I heard a story &nbsp;from this years = nats where one of the Advanced competitors that was in &nbsp;contention flew = a less-than-perfect maneuver, and another pilot who was also &nbsp;in = contention (and watching) yelled out an inappropriate remark. &nbsp;I &nbsp;think = that audience input or influence is something we should steer away &nbsp;from = for precision aerobatics. &nbsp;We certainly do not need it to be quiet = &nbsp;like for golf, but direct statements meant to be heard by the judges are not &nbsp;good.<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Although slightly &nbsp;off topic = &#8211; what I do think we should do is post all raw scores every flight &nbsp;for every = pilot (I think this is done for the WC). &nbsp;I think this would &nbsp;provide = the following opportunities:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:224.4pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-lis= t: l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list = 1.0in;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>1.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'> </span></font></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana; color:navy'>The availability of the raw &nbsp;scores would in itself = represent and INCREDIBLE judges training &nbsp;tool. &nbsp;Seasoned and new = competitor alike could watch flights &nbsp;together, make comments and discuss, = then go back later and see if what &nbsp;they thought they saw was in line with = the scores for that flight. &nbsp;&nbsp;There is all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate judging training (.. &nbsp;ideas welcome).</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> &nbsp; = </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:224.4pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-lis= t: l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list = 1.0in;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>2.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'> </span></font></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana; color:navy'>Posting of raw scores would &nbsp;allow &#8220;judges&#8221; = to after-the-fact see how they performed compared to their &nbsp;judging partners. = &nbsp;There is all kinds of good value that could come &nbsp;from this. &nbsp;Whether = noted privately or discussed between each other, &nbsp;it is good from time to = time to check yourself.</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> &nbsp; = </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:224.4pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-lis= t: l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list = 1.0in;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>3.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'> </span></font></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana; color:navy'>Posting of raw scores would &nbsp;help keep the honest man = honest. &nbsp;By posting raw scores, I think &nbsp;there would be a reduction of = bias any way you cut it: &nbsp;&nbsp;Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, = &#8220;teams&#8221;, regionality, or other bias&#8217; would be &nbsp;removed/reduced if the = person knew ahead of time that the judges scores &nbsp;would be = posted.</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> &nbsp; = </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:224.4pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-lis= t: l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list = 1.0in;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>4.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'> </span></font></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana; color:navy'>And most importantly, &nbsp;increased = &#8220;transparency&#8221; in the system helps the seasoned and new comer &nbsp;alike understand the process of = the contest, scoring, and &#8220;how&#8221; the 1000, &nbsp;900, or = 800&#8217;s came to be. &nbsp;I believe that no matter whom you are, you &nbsp;want to leave a contest = and feel like you (&amp; everyone) was dealt a &nbsp;fair hand. = &nbsp;Transparency is the key to this. &nbsp;&nbsp;</span></font><font size=3D2 = face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> = </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:224.4pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-lis= t: l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list = 1.0in;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><![if = !supportLists]><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>5.<font size=3D1 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New = Roman"'> </span></font></span></font><![endif]><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana; color:navy'>OK &#8211; last one &#8211; it takes = &nbsp;&#8220;scoring&#8221; which is a topic of much discussion during and after a pattern &nbsp;contest in case you = haven&#8217;t heard, away from a shadowy discussion, and &nbsp;brings to the open this topic = which everyone is already discussing. &nbsp;&nbsp;This would do a lot to = remove ammunition from the conspiracy theorist and &nbsp;such whom all of our districts have. &nbsp;Transparency is good &nbsp;</span></font><font = size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>J = &nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:188.4pt;border:none;mso-border-lef= t-alt: solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font = size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>I write none of &nbsp;this from the = sour-grapes perspective. &nbsp;I love this stuff. &nbsp;I &nbsp;think the potential benefits from posting the raws would out weight the &nbsp;potential bad, provide more transparency for the competitor and also provide = &nbsp;judges training.<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Thanks,<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Jim &nbsp;W.<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family: Arial'>CONFIDENTIALITY &nbsp;NOTICE:</span></font><font size=3D4 = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial'> This e-mail message, = including any &nbsp;attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and = may &nbsp;contain confidential and proprietary information. &nbsp;Any = unauthorized &nbsp;review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. &nbsp;If = you are not &nbsp;the intended recipient(s), please contact the sender by reply = e-mail and &nbsp;destroy all copies of the original message. &nbsp;<br> </span></font><font size=3D4 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:13.5pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <p align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;margin-left:188.4pt;text-align:center; border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black = 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D4 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt'><![if = !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt: auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:188.4pt;text-align:center; border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black = 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D4 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> <p = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;margin-left:188.4pt;border:none;mso-border-le= ft-alt: solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font = size=3D4 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Verdana'><br> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> </span></font><font size=3D4 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:13.5pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> <br> </span></font><b><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> = &nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion= -bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> &nbsp;[<a = href=3D"mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-= discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>JShulman<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, August 27, = 2007 1:49 &nbsp;PM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing = List<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: = [NSRCA-discussion] Are we &nbsp;behind the times?<br> </span></font><font size=3D4 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:13.5pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;<br> <br> </span></font><font size=3D4 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:13.5pt; font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Probably the best &nbsp;reason not to = have it...lol. It's bad enough when we screw-up... I mean when &nbsp;a pilot screws-up and you hear all the OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the = &nbsp;crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when someone gets judged for a maneuver = &nbsp;that they are doing all wrong! Total &nbsp;Chaos!<br> </span></font><font size=3D4 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:13.5pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> <br> &nbsp;<br> </span></font><font size=3D2><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Regards,<br> Jason<br> <a href=3D"http://www.jasonshulman.com">www.jasonshulman.com</a><br> <a = href=3D"http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</a><br> <a = href=3D"http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</a></span></f= ont><font size=3D4 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Verdana'> &nbsp;<br> &nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:2.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:224.4pt;border:none;mso-border-lef= t-alt: solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in = 4.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana; font-weight:bold'>On Behalf &nbsp;Of </span></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Derek &nbsp;Koopowitz<br> </span></font><font size=3D4 face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:13.5pt; font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<br> <br> </span></font><font size=3D4><span style=3D'font-size:13.5pt'>can you = just imagine all the &quot;oohhhss and aahhhs&quot; &nbsp;from the spectators. &nbsp;&nbsp;:)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:188.4pt;border:none;mso-border-lef= t-alt: solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font = size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br> &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt: auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:188.4pt;text-align:center; border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black = 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> <hr size=3D3 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:2.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:188.4pt;border:none;mso-border-lef= t-alt: solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font = size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> NSRCA-discussion &nbsp;mailing &nbsp;list<br> <a = href=3D"mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.n= srca.org</a><br> <a = href=3D"http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://= lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font><o:p><= /o:p></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:116.4pt;border:none;mso-border-lef= t-alt: solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font = size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><![if = !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt: auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:116.4pt;text-align:center; border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black = 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> <hr size=3D3 width=3D"95%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:1.0in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:116.4pt;border:none;mso-border-lef= t-alt: solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font = size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Courier = New"'>_______________________________________________<br> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br> <a = href=3D"mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.n= srca.org</a><br> <a = href=3D"http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://= lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span></font><o:p><= /o:p></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:= auto;margin-left:80.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black = 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D1 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D'font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Courier = New"'><br style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'> <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br = style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'> <![endif]></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <pre = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in; margin-left:80.4pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center;border:none; mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in = 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> <hr size=3D4 width=3D"90%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></pre><pre = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in; margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:80.4pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none; mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in = 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><![if = !supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margi= n-left: 80.4pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black = 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>______________________________________________= _<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margi= n-left: 80.4pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black = 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>NSRCA-discussion = mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margi= n-left: 80.4pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black = 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><a href=3D"mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.n= srca.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:0in;margi= n-left: 80.4pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black = 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><a href=3D"http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://= lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><o:p></o:p></span></= font></pre></div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;margin-left:44.4pt;text-align:center;border:none;mso-border-left-alt= :solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:44.4pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>______________________________________________= _<br> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></span= ></font></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in = 0in 4.0pt'> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;margin-left:40.2pt;text-align:center;border:none;mso-border-left-alt= :solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:40.2pt;border:none;mso-border-left-alt:solid black 1.5pt; padding:0in;mso-padding-alt:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><font size=3D3 = color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>______________________________________________= _<br> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<o:p></o:p></span= ></font></p> </div> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01C7E95C.46566A80-- --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21570_1188328580_1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_21570_1188328580_1-- ]