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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>Someone distributed a case load
of rose colored eye glasses..? maybe.? grin ..</FONT>
</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net
href="mailto:JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net">Jerry Stebbins</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:00
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't
behind the times.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Seems like we are flogging the dead horse for
some other reason than the "Spectators". TOC comparisons are a reach. Most
"spectators" are other contestants/helpers. Few wannabes come out unless they
are working, and if they have the pattern itch they would be there anyway.
Those are they ones we can talk to/explain/cultivate/ let fly after the
contest!. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Maybe the old days of short shorts callers could
be brought back by developing and forming a set of touring callers--how
about calling the Dallas Cheerleaders and see if they would be
interested. THAT would probably increase our "Spectator" base. :) :)
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wonder what the underlying reason is for this
thread-anyone willing to fess-up?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jpavlick@idseng.com href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">John
Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We
aren't behind the times.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators
at a Pattern contest? Where are they? Do wives and girlfriends
count?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A
href="http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jgghome@comcast.net href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">John
Gayer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We
aren't behind the times.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of
pilots with airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing
handouts on the patterns and pattern in general.<BR><BR>Not having been to
an IMAC contest in years, are they doing better in providing information
to spectators? Are they getting large crowds for the unknowns and
freestyles?<BR>The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I
recall, with raw scores and handed out the patterns being flown.<BR>Must
be why they had such large crowds <SPAN class=moz-smiley-s1><SPAN>:-)
</SPAN></SPAN><BR>John<BR><BR>Mark Atwood wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=midC2F912CC.18C7B%25atwoodm@paragon-inc.com
type="cite"><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">To take that a step further...when was the last
time you saw them televise the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which
is basically what we fly...the EXACT same routine. They’ve dropped
the “figures” portion of the competition completely. <BR><BR>But I
still think it would be entertaining to see scores...though I agree it
is likely to create problems.<BR><BR>-M<BR><BR><BR><BR>On 8/27/07 11:30
PM, "JShulman" <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com"><jshulman@cfl.rr.com></A>
wrote:<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring?
Lets face it, if you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much
that can be done to spice it up. It's still the same sequences being
flown flight after flight. <BR><BR>As for the scoring real-time... the
only one's that it would matter to would be the one's participating in
the contest. Not necessarily just the one's in the class, but the
one's that stay the extra day to watch. Until we throw in some sort of
freestyle or combat, it's just pattern. Who would watch figure skating
without music? <BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com">www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A>
<BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A><B>On
Behalf Of </B>Lance Van Nostrand<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday,
August 27, 2007 10:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the
times?<BR><BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial>I'm
willing to try things that would make pattern more spectator
friendly. I think the reason the lone spectator talking
during a flight has such an effect is because its a lone
person and talking loud enough that judges can hear is rare.
If it became common place we would soon tune it out and
spectators would be better able to follow the
contest.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>Your points are excellent. In my area we
don't require judges to initial their scoresheets. I
don'tunderstand this and I always initial mine, but I also
sometimes put downgrade shorthand next to my scores for pilots
that enjoy knowing why they got a certain score. The
occasions that pilots have approached me afterwards were
supportive and spiritbuilding.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>--Lance<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B> Woodward, Jim <A
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com"><mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08
PM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are
we behind the
times?<BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></FONT></SPAN><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">I heard a story from
this years nats where one of the Advanced competitors that was in
contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver, and another
pilot who was also in contention (and watching) yelled out
an inappropriate remark. I think that audience input
or influence is something we should steer away from for
precision aerobatics. We certainly do not need it to be
quiet like for golf, but direct statements meant to be heard
by the judges are not good.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Although
slightly off topic – what I do think we should do is post
all raw scores every flight for every pilot (I think this is
done for the WC). I think this would provide the
following opportunities:<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<OL>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">The
availability of the raw scores would in itself represent
and INCREDIBLE judges training tool. Seasoned and
new competitor alike could watch flights together, make
comments and discuss, then go back later and see if what
they thought they saw was in line with the scores for that
flight. There is all kinds of opportunity here to
facilitate judging training (.. ideas
welcome).</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Posting
of raw scores would allow “judges” to after-the-fact see
how they performed compared to their judging partners.
There is all kinds of good value that could come
from this. Whether noted privately or discussed
between each other, it is good from time to time to check
yourself.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Posting
of raw scores would help keep the honest man honest.
By posting raw scores, I think there would be a
reduction of bias any way you cut it:
Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, “teams”, regionality,
or other bias’ would be removed/reduced if the person knew
ahead of time that the judges scores would be
posted.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">And
most importantly, increased “transparency” in the system
helps the seasoned and new comer alike understand the
process of the contest, scoring, and “how” the 1000, 900,
or 800’s came to be. I believe that no matter whom you
are, you want to leave a contest and feel like you (&
everyone) was dealt a fair hand. Transparency is the
key to this. </SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"> </SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">OK –
last one – it takes “scoring” which is a topic of much
discussion during and after a pattern contest in case you
haven’t heard, away from a shadowy discussion, and brings
to the open this topic which everyone is already discussing.
This would do a lot to remove ammunition from the
conspiracy theorist and such whom all of our districts
have. Transparency is good
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">J
<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></LI></OL><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">I write
none of this from the sour-grapes perspective. I love
this stuff. I think the potential benefits from
posting the raws would out weight the potential bad, provide
more transparency for the competitor and also provide judges
training.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Thanks,<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Jim
W.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
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<P align=center><FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
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<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P></P>
<P><FONT size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>JShulman<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27,
2007 1:49 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind
the times?<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR> <BR> <BR><BR><FONT
color=#0000ff>Probably the best reason not to have it...lol.
It's bad enough when we screw-up... I mean when a pilot
screws-up and you hear all the OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the
crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when someone gets judged
for a maneuver that they are doing all wrong! Total
Chaos!<BR></FONT><BR> <BR><BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=4><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com">www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">
<BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>On Behalf Of
</B>Derek Koopowitz<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><FONT
face="Times New Roman">can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and
aahhhs" from the spectators.
:)<BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR>
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