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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators at
a Pattern contest? Where are they? Do wives and girlfriends
count?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A
href="http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jgghome@comcast.net href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">John Gayer</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't
behind the times.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots
with airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing handouts on the
patterns and pattern in general.<BR><BR>Not having been to an IMAC contest in
years, are they doing better in providing information to spectators? Are
they getting large crowds for the unknowns and freestyles?<BR>The TOC had a
large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I recall, with raw scores and
handed out the patterns being flown.<BR>Must be why they had such large crowds
<SPAN class=moz-smiley-s1><SPAN>:-) </SPAN></SPAN><BR>John<BR><BR>Mark Atwood
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=midC2F912CC.18C7B%25atwoodm@paragon-inc.com
type="cite"><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">To take that a step further...when was the last time
you saw them televise the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which is
basically what we fly...the EXACT same routine. They’ve dropped the
“figures” portion of the competition completely. <BR><BR>But I still
think it would be entertaining to see scores...though I agree it is likely
to create problems.<BR><BR>-M<BR><BR><BR><BR>On 8/27/07 11:30 PM, "JShulman"
<A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com"><jshulman@cfl.rr.com></A>
wrote:<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring?
Lets face it, if you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much that
can be done to spice it up. It's still the same sequences being flown
flight after flight. <BR><BR>As for the scoring real-time... the only
one's that it would matter to would be the one's participating in the
contest. Not necessarily just the one's in the class, but the one's that
stay the extra day to watch. Until we throw in some sort of freestyle or
combat, it's just pattern. Who would watch figure skating without music?
<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com">www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A>
<BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A><B>On
Behalf Of </B>Lance Van Nostrand<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August
27, 2007 10:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the
times?<BR><BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial>I'm willing
to try things that would make pattern more spectator friendly.
I think the reason the lone spectator talking during a
flight has such an effect is because its a lone person and talking
loud enough that judges can hear is rare. If it became common
place we would soon tune it out and spectators would be better
able to follow the contest.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>Your points are excellent. In my area we don't
require judges to initial their scoresheets. I don'tunderstand
this and I always initial mine, but I also sometimes put downgrade
shorthand next to my scores for pilots that enjoy knowing why they
got a certain score. The occasions that pilots have
approached me afterwards were supportive and
spiritbuilding.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>--Lance<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B> Woodward, Jim <A
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com"><mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08
PM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we
behind the
times?<BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></FONT></SPAN><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">I heard a story from this
years nats where one of the Advanced competitors that was in
contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver, and another pilot
who was also in contention (and watching) yelled out an
inappropriate remark. I think that audience input or
influence is something we should steer away from for precision
aerobatics. We certainly do not need it to be quiet like
for golf, but direct statements meant to be heard by the judges are
not good.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Although slightly off topic
– what I do think we should do is post all raw scores every flight
for every pilot (I think this is done for the WC). I think
this would provide the following
opportunities:<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<OL>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">The availability of the raw
scores would in itself represent and INCREDIBLE judges
training tool. Seasoned and new competitor alike could
watch flights together, make comments and discuss, then go
back later and see if what they thought they saw was in line
with the scores for that flight. There is all kinds of
opportunity here to facilitate judging training (.. ideas
welcome).</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Posting of raw scores would
allow “judges” to after-the-fact see how they performed
compared to their judging partners. There is all kinds
of good value that could come from this. Whether noted
privately or discussed between each other, it is good from
time to time to check yourself.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"> </SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Posting of raw scores would
help keep the honest man honest. By posting raw scores,
I think there would be a reduction of bias any way you cut it:
Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, “teams”, regionality, or
other bias’ would be removed/reduced if the person knew ahead
of time that the judges scores would be
posted.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">And most importantly,
increased “transparency” in the system helps the seasoned and
new comer alike understand the process of the contest,
scoring, and “how” the 1000, 900, or 800’s came to be. I
believe that no matter whom you are, you want to leave a
contest and feel like you (& everyone) was dealt a fair
hand. Transparency is the key to this.
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">OK – last one – it takes
“scoring” which is a topic of much discussion during and after
a pattern contest in case you haven’t heard, away from a
shadowy discussion, and brings to the open this topic which
everyone is already discussing. This would do a lot to
remove ammunition from the conspiracy theorist and such whom
all of our districts have. Transparency is good
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">J
<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></LI></OL><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">I write none of this from
the sour-grapes perspective. I love this stuff. I
think the potential benefits from posting the raws would out
weight the potential bad, provide more transparency for the
competitor and also provide judges
training.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Thanks,<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Jim
W.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
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</SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P></P>
<P><FONT size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>JShulman<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27, 2007
1:49 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the
times?<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR> <BR> <BR><BR><FONT
color=#0000ff>Probably the best reason not to have it...lol.
It's bad enough when we screw-up... I mean when a pilot
screws-up and you hear all the OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the
crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when someone gets judged for
a maneuver that they are doing all wrong! Total
Chaos!<BR></FONT><BR> <BR><BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=4><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com">www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"> <BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>On Behalf Of </B>Derek
Koopowitz<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><FONT
face="Times New Roman">can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and
aahhhs" from the spectators.
:)<BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR>
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