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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Seems like we are flogging the dead horse for some
other reason than the "Spectators". TOC comparisons are a reach. Most
"spectators" are other contestants/helpers. Few wannabes come out unless they
are working, and if they have the pattern itch they would be there anyway. Those
are they ones we can talk to/explain/cultivate/ let fly after the contest!.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Maybe the old days of short shorts callers could be
brought back by developing and forming a set of touring callers--how
about calling the Dallas Cheerleaders and see if they would be interested.
THAT would probably increase our "Spectator" base. :) :) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wonder what the underlying reason is for this
thread-anyone willing to fess-up?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jpavlick@idseng.com href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">John
Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:00
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We aren't
behind the times.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Uh, what are you guys talking about? Spectators
at a Pattern contest? Where are they? Do wives and girlfriends
count?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A
href="http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jgghome@comcast.net href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">John
Gayer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:12
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] We
aren't behind the times.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Having a large scoreboard with names(maybe pictures of pilots
with airplanes) and raw scores would help. So would providing handouts on
the patterns and pattern in general.<BR><BR>Not having been to an IMAC
contest in years, are they doing better in providing information to
spectators? Are they getting large crowds for the unknowns and
freestyles?<BR>The TOC had a large scoreboard that was kept uptodate, as I
recall, with raw scores and handed out the patterns being flown.<BR>Must be
why they had such large crowds <SPAN class=moz-smiley-s1><SPAN>:-)
</SPAN></SPAN><BR>John<BR><BR>Mark Atwood wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=midC2F912CC.18C7B%25atwoodm@paragon-inc.com
type="cite"><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">To take that a step further...when was the last
time you saw them televise the Figure Skating compulsory rounds...which is
basically what we fly...the EXACT same routine. They’ve dropped the
“figures” portion of the competition completely. <BR><BR>But I still
think it would be entertaining to see scores...though I agree it is likely
to create problems.<BR><BR>-M<BR><BR><BR><BR>On 8/27/07 11:30 PM,
"JShulman" <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:jshulman@cfl.rr.com"><jshulman@cfl.rr.com></A>
wrote:<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>Has anyone else thought that pattern is just really boring?
Lets face it, if you don't enjoy precision flying, there isn't much that
can be done to spice it up. It's still the same sequences being flown
flight after flight. <BR><BR>As for the scoring real-time... the only
one's that it would matter to would be the one's participating in the
contest. Not necessarily just the one's in the class, but the one's that
stay the extra day to watch. Until we throw in some sort of freestyle or
combat, it's just pattern. Who would watch figure skating without music?
<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com">www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A>
<BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A><B>On
Behalf Of </B>Lance Van Nostrand<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August
27, 2007 10:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the
times?<BR><BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial>I'm
willing to try things that would make pattern more spectator
friendly. I think the reason the lone spectator talking
during a flight has such an effect is because its a lone person
and talking loud enough that judges can hear is rare. If
it became common place we would soon tune it out and spectators
would be better able to follow the contest.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>Your points are excellent. In my area we don't
require judges to initial their scoresheets. I don'tunderstand
this and I always initial mine, but I also sometimes put
downgrade shorthand next to my scores for pilots that enjoy
knowing why they got a certain score. The occasions that
pilots have approached me afterwards were supportive and
spiritbuilding.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>--Lance<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B> Woodward, Jim <A
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com"><mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27, 2007 1:08
PM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we
behind the
times?<BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></FONT></SPAN><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">I heard a story from this
years nats where one of the Advanced competitors that was in
contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver, and another
pilot who was also in contention (and watching) yelled out an
inappropriate remark. I think that audience input or
influence is something we should steer away from for precision
aerobatics. We certainly do not need it to be quiet like
for golf, but direct statements meant to be heard by the judges are
not good.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Although
slightly off topic – what I do think we should do is post all
raw scores every flight for every pilot (I think this is done
for the WC). I think this would provide the following
opportunities:<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<OL>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">The
availability of the raw scores would in itself represent and
INCREDIBLE judges training tool. Seasoned and new
competitor alike could watch flights together, make comments
and discuss, then go back later and see if what they thought
they saw was in line with the scores for that flight.
There is all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate
judging training (.. ideas
welcome).</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Posting
of raw scores would allow “judges” to after-the-fact see how
they performed compared to their judging partners.
There is all kinds of good value that could come from
this. Whether noted privately or discussed between each
other, it is good from time to time to check
yourself.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Posting
of raw scores would help keep the honest man honest.
By posting raw scores, I think there would be a
reduction of bias any way you cut it: Santa-Clausing,
Low-balling, “teams”, regionality, or other bias’ would be
removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of time that the
judges scores would be posted.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"> </SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">And most
importantly, increased “transparency” in the system helps
the seasoned and new comer alike understand the process of
the contest, scoring, and “how” the 1000, 900, or 800’s came
to be. I believe that no matter whom you are, you want
to leave a contest and feel like you (& everyone) was dealt a
fair hand. Transparency is the key to this.
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">
</SPAN></FONT>
<LI><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">OK – last
one – it takes “scoring” which is a topic of much discussion
during and after a pattern contest in case you haven’t
heard, away from a shadowy discussion, and brings to the
open this topic which everyone is already discussing.
This would do a lot to remove ammunition from the
conspiracy theorist and such whom all of our districts have.
Transparency is good </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">J
<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></LI></OL><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">I write
none of this from the sour-grapes perspective. I love
this stuff. I think the potential benefits from posting
the raws would out weight the potential bad, provide more
transparency for the competitor and also provide judges
training.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Thanks,<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Jim
W.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
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<P align=center><FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
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<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P></P>
<P><FONT size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR> <BR></SPAN><FONT
size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org%5D">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>JShulman<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27, 2007
1:49 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the
times?<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR> <BR> <BR><BR><FONT
color=#0000ff>Probably the best reason not to have it...lol.
It's bad enough when we screw-up... I mean when a pilot
screws-up and you hear all the OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from the
crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when someone gets judged
for a maneuver that they are doing all wrong! Total
Chaos!<BR></FONT><BR> <BR><BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=4><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com">www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com">www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="http://www.composite-arf.com">www.composite-arf.com</A></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">
<BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>On Behalf Of
</B>Derek Koopowitz<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><FONT
face="Times New Roman">can you just imagine all the "oohhhss and
aahhhs" from the spectators.
:)<BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR>
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