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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=870521802-28082007>Having been
one of the judges during this, thankfully Vince's plane looked like it was
relatively untouched and Lamar's plane was missing the stab. When Vince told us
that he was "ok" we did ask him to fly around and let Lamar land before him.
Although shaken, Vince brought his plane in like a champ. But ONLY in instances
like that would I want anyone other than the caller talking.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=870521802-28082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=870521802-28082007>And one thing
that we all did was turn our phones off when we judged. Just common
sense/courtesy, or so I thought.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT
size=2>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com</FONT>
</P>
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> vicenterc@comcast.net
[mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27, 2007 3:51
PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Cc:</B>
JShulman<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we behind the
times?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Well, sometimes is very good to hear the public and the
judges. A the Nats this year, I was flying inverted full concentration
getting ready for the second maneuver in Master. Suddenly, my plane
started to roll extremely fast to the left. In the first split
second, I didn't know what is going on. I just cut the engine. In
the second split second, I hear that someone said "he lost the
elevator". In that moment, I knew that I had a mid-air but I didn't know
if that was my elevator. In the third split second, I gave full
right aileron and the plane stop rolling. I started to give power
slowly and the judges behind me were very helpful to me saying that the
my plane was OK and fly around until the other plane that lost the elevator
landed. We were very lucky that we didn't lost the planes but I
think other pilots and judges were really helpful to get the planes
back. I appreciate very much th e help and comments from pilots and
judges in that particular case.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=signature id=signature>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<jshulman@cfl.rr.com> <BR>
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<DIV><SPAN class=600293619-27082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Wow Tim,
what a memory... I don't even remember that part of the contest. But I need
to learn how to concentrate more on my flying and less on what I hear while
I fly. One round at the Nats this year I swore I heard a judge say zero
during one of my flights (I think my 1st unknown), and from then on (3rd or
4th maneuver in) I was a mess. Come to find out, I didn't zero anything, but
I didn't know that at the time, so I wasted away a flight for
nothing.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=600293619-27082007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=600293619-27082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Now if I
can just convince the FAI guys at Jax to try a round of "self-judging" then
we can have "fun" with the judging. Although calculating the scores
would be a minor issue.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT
size=2>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com</FONT>
</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>twtaylor<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 27, 2007 2:13 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'NSRCA Mailing List'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are we
behind the times?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This happened
years ago, Jason, Joe and Ryan were up here flying a local contest. Jason
decided to try his hand at FAI in front of a set of judges. He asked and
received permission to do a practice flight in front of said FAI judges. A
few of us (My self included) sat back and watched his flight. We went
through each maneuver and talking to each other as the flight went along
about what was right and wrong and the score for each maneuver. Mind you
we were 40’ away from the judges. When Jason landed you could tell he was
a bit miffed (more like pissed). Seems our talking to each other could be
heard by him and the judges (Confirmed by the judges). I had no idea he
could hear us and I apologized to Jason and the judge’s and never did that
at a contest again. BTW IIRC He would have won that round.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Wingdings color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; FONT-SI: 10pt">J</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</st1:PersonName>]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Woodward,
Jim<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, August
27, 2007 2:08 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are
we behind the times?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I heard a story
from this years nats where one of the Advanced competitors that was in
contention flew a less-than-perfect maneuver, and another pilot who was
also in contention (and watching) yelled out an inappropriate
remark. I think that audience input or influence is something we
should steer away from for precision aerobatics. We certainly do not
need it to be quiet like for golf, but direct statements meant to be heard
by the judges are not good.<U1:P></U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><U1:P> </U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Although slightly
off topic – what I do think we should do is post all raw scores every
flight for every pilot (I think this is done for the WC). I think
this would provide the following
opportunities:<U1:P></U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=1>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="COLOR: navy; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo3"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The availability of the raw
scores would in itself represent and INCREDIBLE judges training
tool. Seasoned and new competitor alike could watch flights
together, make comments and discuss, then go back later and see if what
they thought they saw was in line with the scores for that flight.
There is all kinds of opportunity here to facilitate judging training
(.. ideas welcome).<U1:P></U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="COLOR: navy; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo3"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Posting of raw scores would
allow “judges” to after-the-fact see how they performed compared to
their judging partners. There is all kinds of good value that
could come from this. Whether noted privately or discussed between
each other, it is good from time to time to check
yourself.<U1:P></U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="COLOR: navy; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo3"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Posting of raw scores would
help keep the honest man honest. By posting raw scores, I think
there would be a reduction of bias any way you cut it:
Santa-Clausing, Low-balling, “teams”, regionality, or other bias’ would
be removed/reduced if the person knew ahead of time that the judges
scores would be posted.<U1:P></U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="COLOR: navy; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo3"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">And most importantly,
increased “transparency” in the system helps the seasoned and new comer
alike understand the process of the contest, scoring, and “how” the
1000, 900, or 800’s came to be. I believe that no matter whom you
are, you want to leave a contest and feel like you (& everyone) was
dealt a fair hand. Transparency is the key to this.
<U1:P></U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="COLOR: navy; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo3"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">OK – last one – it takes
“scoring” which is a topic of much discussion during and after a pattern
contest in case you haven’t heard, away from a shadowy discussion, and
brings to the open this topic which everyone is already
discussing. This would do a lot to remove ammunition from the
conspiracy theorist and such whom all of our districts have.
Transparency is good </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Wingdings size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></LI></OL><U1:P></U1:P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><U1:P> </U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I write none of
this from the sour-grapes perspective. I love this stuff. I
think the potential benefits from posting the raws would out weight the
potential bad, provide more transparency for the competitor and also
provide judges training.<U1:P></U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><U1:P> </U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,<U1:P></U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName u2:st="on"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</st1:PersonName>
W.<U1:P></U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><U1:P> </U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><U1:P> </U1:P></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
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NOTICE:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black size=2><SPAN
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</st1:PersonName>]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of
</SPAN></B>JShulman<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Monday, August 27, 2007 1:49 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
u2:st="on"><st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing
List</st1:PersonName></st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Are
we behind the times?</SPAN></FONT><U1:P></U1:P><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><U1:P> </U1:P><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Probably the best
reason not to have it...lol. It's bad enough when we screw-up... I mean
when a pilot screws-up and you hear all the OOOooooohhhhhhhhhhhh's from
the crowd. Now just imagine the uproar when someone gets judged for a
maneuver that they are doing all wrong! Total
Chaos!</SPAN></FONT><U1:P></U1:P><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"> <U1:P></U1:P><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black">
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT><U1:P></U1:P></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">On
Behalf Of </SPAN></FONT></B><st1:PersonName u2:st="on"><FONT face=Tahoma
color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Derek
Koopowitz</SPAN></FONT></st1:PersonName><U1:P></U1:P><FONT
color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">can you just imagine all the
"oohhhss and aahhhs" from the spectators.
:)<U1:P></U1:P><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>