<div> Glen didn't say that the Quote was from another. </div>
<div> Steve Maxwell<br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 8/16/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Pete Cosky</b> <<a href="mailto:pcosky@comcast.net">pcosky@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">>I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie Sportsman's<br>>comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. <
<br><br>Glen,<br><br>I am sure you didn't mean anything by it, but comments like that cause<br>people to think that pattern pilots are elitists. I don't care who a person<br>is or if they even fly pattern at all; everyone is entitled to their
<br>opinion. I do not agree with Fred, but I sure will let him express his<br>opinion without casting dispersions on him or his current class.<br><br>We want to not only keep the people we have, including sportsman, but<br>
attract new blood and in my opinion making comments like the one above does<br>nothing to help the sport.<br><br>Just my opinion.<br><br>Pete<br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: <<a href="mailto:glmiller3@suddenlink.net">
glmiller3@suddenlink.net</a>><br>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 2:00<br>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection? -->
<br>Personal dilemma, what to do next season<br><br><br>> Glen,<br>><br>> I don't fly masters but I'll be pissed if you let some newbie Sportsman's<br>> comments keep you from defending your Masters National Championship. I
<br>> love watching you fly and frankly, I hope that you'll still be in Masters<br>> when and/or if I ever get there to fly against you.<br>><br>> I've deleted several messages before I sent them to this thread because I
<br>> didn't want to add fuel to the fire, but I'm really tired of people trying<br>> to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Masters is the top of the AMA<br>> pyramid and FAI is the international competition. There isn't a real
<br>> problem with people sandbagging - at least none that I've seen in D6 this<br>> year. So lets get over this and get on with having fun!<br>><br>> I don't see any of the guys that you are actually competing against that
<br>> have a problem with you defending your title! If you want to go FAI, then<br>> please do, but make it your decision and of course you can always fly<br>> Masters AND FAI at different contests.<br>><br>> On a different note, if your cruise gets rained out by the storms headed
<br>> for the Gulf- I hope that you'll make it over to our contest<G>!<br>><br>> George<br>><br>> ---- Glen Watson <<a href="mailto:gwatson11@houston.rr.com">gwatson11@houston.rr.com</a>> wrote:
<br>>> Wow -- this thread and others has become very personal and packed with<br>>> emotionally based comments.<br>>><br>>> My recent success at the NATS has become bitter-sweet full of highs and<br>
>> lows<br>>> on what I should do next. The rules state that I can return to the NATS<br>>> and<br>>> defend my National Championship if I so desire. I'm asking myself is<br>>> that<br>
>> such a bad thing. Well a few have voiced their opinions that it would<br>>> be.<br>>> I'm wondering if that is a personal feeling or are they thinking what's<br>>> good<br>>> for the pattern community as a whole?
<br>>><br>>> My goals for the sport are simple. First to have fun competing, this<br>>> includes giving back to the sport in some manner. Second is to be as<br>>> competitive as I can.<br>>>
<br>>> Giving back falls in a couple of categories:<br>>> 1) Sharing my knowledge and experience with others to help them have fun<br>>> and<br>>> be competitive in this sport.<br>>> 2) Work with equipment supplier/manufacture to develop and promote their
<br>>> product offerings to the pattern community for us to enjoy.<br>>><br>>> The question I ask myself is can I do both if I move to FAI? The short<br>>> answer is yes, however what influence would I have if I was a middle of
<br>>> the<br>>> pack FAI competitor? IMHO top level Masters competitors should have<br>>> influence on equipments trends. Here in the US we are fortunate to have<br>>> a<br>>> large group of national level competitors who would benefit from having
<br>>> more<br>>> options and diversity in their equipment choices. From my vantage point<br>>> currently only the top FAI class flyers world wide have the most<br>>> influence<br>>> over the market.
<br>>><br>>> Many of us (me included) buy the exact equipment the top FAI competitors<br>>> use<br>>> to win their respective National events or the Worlds. I feel there is<br>>> an<br>>> opportunity for the top US Masters competitors to have a similar effect.
<br>>> A<br>>> good example of this is the collaboration between Hester and Stafford.<br>>> Many<br>>> will benefit from having an obtainable design manufactured here in the US<br>>> that's competitive against any of the foreign import designs especially
<br>>> at<br>>> the Masters level.<br>>><br>>> My decision on what to do next season is still pending. If I choose to<br>>> return to Masters next season I asked not to be viewed as a sandbagger
<br>>> but<br>>> as one who is for bettering the quality and enjoyment of the sport.<br>>><br>>> ~Glen<br>>><br>>><br>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of Mike<br>>> Hester<br>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:01 AM
<br>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List<br>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?<br>>><br>>> Well, I'm about to go out the door and do that novel thing we call<br>>> "flying"
<br>>> (instead of typing). So, I'll be brief for now.<br>>><br>>> You just blatantly called Arch Stafford a "sandbagger" because he said<br>>> his<br>>> goal was to win the nats in masters. You're right that it may or may not
<br>>> ever happen, and he knows this all too well. You need practice, skill,<br>>> the<br>>> proper equipment, coaching, and good old fashioned luck. He's certainly<br>>> capable of it.<br>>>
<br>>> Arch is right where he belongs, whether you like it or not, and whether<br>>> you<br>>> agree or not. Have you ever seen him fly? I have, and he's a masters<br>>> pilot.<br>>> One of the best. he got there by many many years of hard work and paying
<br>>> his<br>>><br>>> dues. Yep he could fly FAI if he chose to, but to fly FAI on a national<br>>> level requires a LOT of time that most people simply don't have. You<br>>> can't<br>
>> appreciate the difference until you try it yourself, in competition, not<br>>> at<br>>> the practice field. it's DIFFERENT. The scoring is different, the<br>>> manuevers<br>>> are different, etc.
<br>>><br>>> Like it or not, masters IS a destination class and I am almost 100%<br>>> positive<br>>><br>>> that will not change. I also believe it should stay this way. FAI is a<br>>> choice, and I like choices. I don't hear any MASTERS pilots complaining
<br>>> about Arch or Glen or ?????? No, they like the competition, and they like<br>>> them as people.<br>>><br>>> Arch is a friend of mine and I sponsor him. There's a reason for that.<br>>> I'd
<br>>> break my back to help that guy, why? Because he'd do...and does...the<br>>> same<br>>> for me, or anybody else. Calling any masters pilot a sandbagger is<br>>> unproductive, provocative and uncalled for. When their life and thier own
<br>>> goals dictate the decision to move into FAI, let THEM make that decision.<br>>> You want to kill pattern for good? Make long time masters pilots have to<br>>> move into FAI. It ain't gonna work.
<br>>><br>>> -Mike<br>>><br>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>>> From: "Fred Huber" <<a href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">fhhuber@clearwire.net</a>><br>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:19 PM<br>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
<br>>><br>>><br>>> > Well...<br>>> ><br>>> > He is the one who proclaimed that he was going to stay in the class<br>>> > until<br>>> > he<br>>> > won a particular event... which how many people have EVER won? Out of
<br>>> > how<br>>> > many who have competed?<br>>> ><br>>> > Sorry... the world does not owe anyone any particular trophy.<br>>> ><br>>> > You say he's second best... maybe thats the best he ever gets.
<br>>> ><br>>> > Every other competitor who goes to the NATS and flys in Masters wants<br>>> > to<br>>> > be<br>>> > the best too. Most will NEVER make it.<br>>> ><br>
>> > Most would be damn glad to be called second best in this sport...<br>>> ><br>>> > Reality is not politically correct.<br>>> ><br>>> > This is not the special olympics where everyone gets the same trophy:
<br>>> > "Participant"<br>>> ><br>>> > ----- Original Message -----<br>>> > From: "Matthew Frederick" <<a href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">mjfrederick@cox.net</a>
><br>>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:17 PM<br>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
<br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> >> Fred,<br>>> >> The person who made the comment about not moving up until winning the<br>>> >> Nats<br>>> >> was Arch Stafford. He's a very nice guy, and according to the Nats
<br>>> >> finish<br>>> >> this year, he's probably the second-best Masters pilot in the nation.<br>>> >> He<br>>> >> wants to be the best before he moves up to F3A, it's a personal goal
<br>>> >> he<br>>> >> has<br>>> >> set and well within the bounds of the rules. Having met Arch, and<br>>> >> knowing<br>>> >> what a decent guy he is, I frankly take offense at you blatantly
<br>>> >> calling<br>>> >> him<br>>> >> out as a sandbagger. I don't know one person who flys Masters in D6<br>>> >> who<br>>> >> would call him that, and those are the people he competes with on a
<br>>> >> regular<br>>> >> basis... There is currently no relevant points accumulation in Masters<br>>> >> other<br>>> >> than for district championships as it is the highest level of AMA
<br>>> >> Pattern.<br>>> >> I<br>>> >> completely agree with the point someone else made that stated we<br>>> >> should<br>>> >> not<br>>> >> force someone to a level of competition that is out of the control of
<br>>> >> the<br>>> >> AMA Competition Regs. If I were ever in a situation that forced me to<br>>> >> move<br>>> >> into F3A competition, I'd probably stop flying pattern. Full
<br>>> >> turnaround<br>>> >> patterns was a hard enough pill to swallow. F3A has too many maneuvers<br>>> >> that,<br>>> >> while very beautiful when performed well, I don't personally consider
<br>>> >> to<br>>> >> be<br>>> >> precision aerobatics. Snaps and spins are enough of a stretch.<br>>> >><br>>> >> Matt<br>>> >><br>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
<br>>> >> From: "Fred Huber" <<a href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">fhhuber@clearwire.net</a>><br>>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:56 PM<br>>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?<br>>> >><br>>> >>
<br>>> >>> No sour grapes here about not being able to win... I don't ever<br>>> >>> expect<br>>> >>> to<br>>> >>> accumulate the points needed to force advancement from Sportsman.
<br>>> >>> The<br>>> >>> hand-eye coordination just isn't there.<br>>> >>><br>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2
<br>>> >>> others<br>>> >>> flying. I'm just in Pattern for the flight discipline... and to be<br>>> >>> around<br>>> >>> people who can help me quit breaking airplanes.
<br>>> >>><br>>> >>> I will probably move to Intermediate next year.. becaue I have<br>>> >>> learned<br>>> >>> almost as much as I can from the Sportman sequence.... I'll place
<br>>> >>> DEAD<br>>> >>> LAST<br>>> >>> FOREVER. I'll fly at the NATS in about 3 or 4 years too.<br>>> >>><br>>> >>> I do see the hypocracy of people complaining about not being
<br>>> >>> competitive<br>>> >>> if<br>>> >>> they move up... and sitting firmly in the lower class for years so<br>>> >>> they<br>>> >>> can<br>>> >>> always win...
<br>>> >>><br>>> >>> "I won't move up until I WIN the NATS" is why they came up with the<br>>> >>> point<br>>> >>> system to force people to move up... sandbagger. (not even bothering
<br>>> >>> to<br>>> >>> look up who made the referenced post...)<br>>> >>><br>>> >>> The only way I'll take 3rd place in Sportsman is if there's only 2<br>
>> >>> others<br>>> >>> flying.<br>>> >>><br>>> >>> I take offense at rules that are unfair.<br>>> >>><br>>> >>> I take offense at people who revise the rules to suit thier personal
<br>>> >>> agendas.<br>>> >>><br>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----<br>>> >>> From: <<a href="mailto:seefo@san.rr.com">seefo@san.rr.com</a>><br>>> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:40 PM<br>>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?
<br>>> >>><br>>> >>><br>>> >>>>I know Glen.<br>>> >>>><br>>> >>>> My question was more rhetorical than anything else, and I really<br>>> >>>> just
<br>>> >>>> put it out there to try to clarify the issue. There seems to be a<br>>> >>>> division amongst people who want Masters to be that stepping stone<br>>> >>>> class verses those who want Masters to be a destination all by
<br>>> >>>> itself<br>>> >>>> (which it currently is).<br>>> >>>><br>>> >>>> I do think the idea of a progression rule whereby a pilot who does<br>>> >>>> not
<br>>> >>>> meet a given criteria has the option of moving down. I personally<br>>> >>>> like<br>>> >>>> the 'qualification' bar idea. For example, a pilot moves up to
<br>>> >>>> Masters<br>>> >>>> from Advanced. In their 1st contest, if they are unable to achieve<br>>> >>>> an<br>>> >>>> AVERAGE normalized score of at least 800, they are given the option
<br>>> >>>> of<br>>> >>>> moving back to Advanced. The 800 number is arbitrary and used for<br>>> >>>> example only.<br>>> >>>><br>>> >>>> I guess my biggest problem with these threads, is they give me a big
<br>>> >>>> sense of sour grapes from people as I read them talk continually<br>>> >>>> about<br>>> >>>> not being able to win. Last I checked this was competition, and if
<br>>> >>>> you<br>>> >>>> want to win, you perfect your own flying until you can do it better<br>>> >>>> than everyone else. You don't tell the guy beating you to go play
<br>>> >>>> somewhere else so you can feel good about yourself.<br>>> >>>><br>>> >>>> Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the 1st time.<br>>> >>>> (just ask my wife)
<br>>> >>>><br>>> >>>> -Doug<br>>> >>>><br>>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>>> >>>> From: Glen Watson <<a href="mailto:gwatson11@houston.rr.com">
gwatson11@houston.rr.com</a>><br>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:24 pm<br>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class selection?<br>>> >>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <
<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a>><br>>> >>>><br>>> >>>>> There is no mandatory advancement from Masters...<br>>> >>>>>
<br>>> >>>>> The following was copied from the current AMA rulebook...<br>>> >>>>><br>>> >>>>> 8.2.5. There is no mandatory advancement into FAI from the Masters
<br>>> >>>>> class.Contestants may enter their current AMA class or the FAI<br>>> >>>>> class at any<br>>> >>>>> contest but not both.<br>>> >>>>>
<br>>> >>>>> ~Glen<br>>> >>>>><br>>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>> >>>>> From: <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>> >>>>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of<br>>> >>>>>
<a href="mailto:seefo@san.rr.com">seefo@san.rr.com</a><br>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM<br>>> >>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List<br>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] More flexibility in class
<br>>> >>>>> selection?<br>>> >>>>><br>>> >>>>><br>>> >>>>> It seems to me the real question that must be answered (yet again)<br>>> >>>> is:
<br>>> >>>>><br>>> >>>>> Is Masters a destination class or not?<br>>> >>>>><br>>> >>>>> -Doug<br>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
<br>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>>> >>>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>> >>>>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>>> >>>>><br>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> >>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
<br>>> >>>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>> >>>>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>>> >>>>><br>>> >>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> >>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
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</a><br>>> >>>><br>>> >>>><br>>> >>>><br>>> >>>> --<br>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message.<br>>> >>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
<br>>> >>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date:<br>>> >>>> 8/14/2007<br>>> >>>> 5:19 PM<br>>> >>>><br>>> >>>>
<br>>> >>><br>>> >>> _______________________________________________<br>>> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>>> >>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>> >>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>>> >>><br>>> >>
<br>>> >> _______________________________________________<br>>> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>>> >> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
</a><br>>> >> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> >> --
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<br>>> >> 5:19 PM<br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> ><br>>> > _______________________________________________<br>>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>>> > <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>> > <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>>><br>>> _______________________________________________
<br>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br>>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>>> <a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">
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</a><br>><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Steve Maxwell