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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I had written a long e-mail responding to you, but
realized it was too long it would be better if I just summed it up:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A lot of what I said was said to stir up a little
discussion. I do however feel AMA pattern should remain its own entity. I think
deciding to move up to F3A competition should be a decision that every pilot can
make on his/her own and not be a forced progression. While the progression
system isn't perfect, it's better than nothing. I think more work could be done
to make the difficulty progression more uniform (Intermediate to Advanced right
now isn't as much of a step as I think it should be), but I don't think the
difficulty of the Masters sequence should in any way be influenced by the
difficulty of the F3A P sequence.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ejhaury@comcast.net href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">Earl Haury</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 14, 2007 7:18
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion]StirringuptheMasters2009Sequencediscussionagain...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Matt, Lance, et al</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>No way am I advocating adding a class! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>My point is that by considering Masters the destination
class we've chosen to raise the bar for that class to near F3A to prevent
boredom for those who've reached the "destination" and, in effect, reduced the
classes available for developmental progression. If F3A were the destination
class (as it was at one time) the Masters sequence could establish a stable
median difficulty level between Advanced and F3A. I'm just offering an idea
based on something that worked and was abandoned, for something that may not
be working as well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I suppose that the progression sequences and advancement
criteria need to really be based on the
underlying motivation to compete. If one's intent is to collect
plaques at any cost - then our advancement system is paramount - force the
sandbaggers up to their level of incompetence (and then out). Doesn't
seem to be beneficial to pattern! If one's intent is to limit the challenge to
comfortable level where one can win regularly - forget about advancement and
progression, just allow each class to stand alone with whatever rules
each class wants (until folks get bored and quit). Doesn't seem very cohesive
to me - might as well fly 3D! Seems that if one's motivation is to enjoy a
flying challenge, improve one's skills at the game, and compete against
one's peers, we only need a reasonable progression of difficulty in the
sequences with an ultimate destination which may be different each individual
(folks stick around for the comradery or the competition). This is where I'd
like our pattern program to be!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I like the idea of advancement basis a percentage of
national performance. It might be even more interesting if a persons class
could move up or down each year! Think about it - not only would good flying
require a move up, but that performance would need be maintained (and one
isn't "stuck with it" if circumstances prevent that). Of course this would
mean the NSRCA would have to administer the program and CD's would need to
submit data. Hmmm, any bets on how well this would work? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I've competed in other venues that used something like
this - your % of local score after some number of rounds / events is compared
to the national average, a position above a "standard" window results in
immediate move up - while a position below results in an immediate move down.
The number of events / rounds is large enough to offset variety in judging,
conditions, etc. The system I'm familiar with makes no exception for making a
move immediately before the National event - there is definitely care
exercised to avoid this! Interestingly, some competitors work hard to earn the
top classification and then quit so as to maintain the "bragging rights" of
that prestigious position without having to work to maintain it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Earl</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@tx.rr.com href="mailto:patterndude@tx.rr.com">Lance Van
Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 13, 2007 11:02
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
StirringuptheMasters2009Sequencediscussionagain...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree. It was just the last rules cycle
that we voted for and instituted the 4 year window to address this.
For years before that, you could accumulate points and theoretically be
forced up - leading to obvious rule bending and counter productive
arguments. Now we have something better but it can be improved.
I encourage anyone here to write a proposal, maybe get some feedback from
this list and your other flying friends, and submit it. There is a
rules cycle in progress. In our district points in D6 we limit the
points one can get at the Nats because there are so many competitors, but D6
contests often have very large turnouts so I agree that some sort of limit
on points per contest, or a max # contests that can be used, or a shorter
window might be worth thinking about.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm not so keen on adding a class. I
believe that Sportsman is a "real" class and we have 3 stepping stones to
Masters. It wasn't long ago I was in sportsman and my first year
I was only dabbling and I really sucked. When I started to try harder
I still needed the next season in Sportsman to learn enough basics before
flying a whole sequence without a box exit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Adding a class would mean 6 classes and 18
trophies. We already have 15 trophies per contest and that means over
half the entrants take home wood. A lot of contests have between 16
and 20 people and some classes only have 3 or less competitors. It's
also hard to fill judge seats as it is. The current # of steps is,
IMO, adequate when considering the logistical issues. This is a
statement of being practical. If I were to be emotional i would
say that it is always great to see the guy beating you move up
so maybe we should have even more classes <G>. As we
all know, in other countries there is only FAI so all of our stepping stones
are better than others get. If we can improve the advancement rules
and be able to refresh the sequences for other destination classes
(Advanced) on the 2 year cycle we'd provide the challenge and newness to
prevent people from being forced up or moving on due to boredom. If we
have energy on this topic, this is abetter focus for it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ejhaury@comcast.net href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">Earl
Haury</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 13, 2007 4:55
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Stirring uptheMasters2009Sequencediscussionagain...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Buddy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What TW & I are suggesting is that
a fix for the large step between Advanced and Masters seems
appropriate and are offering one possible solution. Along with that, I
agree with you and Glen that there may need to be some adjustment to the
points system. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Consider that the point system for
advancement addresses the primary issue of forcing advancement upon
someone who has been successful so as to provide "room at the top" for
other competitors. A failing with this is that it assumes folks won't move
voluntarily - most do, and often ill advised due to boredom in a specific
class. Unfortunately, the system assumes everyone will eventually need to
move up. That's obviously not always the case and some are faced with
moving up or quitting - not a good choice! The ability to drop off points
4 years back helps the GOB - but possibly not in areas with lots of
contests with large numbers of competitors. Maybe a limit on the number of
points acquired in any one contest would help?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So - the conversation is twofold, progression
of difficulty within the classes being one topic and progression of
competitors within the classes the other.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=twtaylor@ftc-i.net
href="mailto:twtaylor@ftc-i.net">twtaylor</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 13, 2007 4:43
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Stirring up theMasters2009Sequencediscussionagain...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi
Buddy<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I understand
your point and I agree. Given the rules, as they are now, progression is
a given. We can lobby to replace the advancement rules easily enough. My
point was to make FAI a destination class as imho it should be. Not
taking anything away from the Master Pilots but the guy that can fly and
win Masters can fly and win in FAI. Seems to me we have two nearly
identical classes and for what reason? What goal are we trying to
achieve doing this? The goal of the entire sport is to advance a flier
from beginner to at least national/regional contender, no? I
understand the GOB deal. What we did way back when was to really make
FAI the top class, renamed Expert to Masters and called it an evening.
Do I think Arch or Glenn could make the finals in FAI at our Nats? You
dang skippy I do. Can I win an FAI contests locally? Probably not this
year but maybe next. IMHO The reason we see such a large turn out in
Masters and not FAI is because many don’t want to fly against QQ and
Chip and The Animal. Here’s one to ponder.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jason goes to
the worlds and wins the whole thing and makes us proud as we can be.
Guess what? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">IIRC the
current rules allow Jason to fly masters, oh wait, If memory serves me
Jason didn’t point out of Advance he jumped straight from Advance to
FAI. He could win the worlds then come home and fly his next contest in
Advance. Wouldn’t that cause a stir! I know he won’t but he could. Back
when I was flying Expert Turn Around and won pretty much every contest I
entered, Kirk Grey decided to bring me down a peg or two,(Well actually
10 or so) at a contest in NC he dropped back from FAI to Expert. Taught
me a great lesson he did. (Said in my best Yoda voice.)
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Wingdings color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of
</SPAN></B>BUDDYonRC@aol.com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, August 13, 2007 5:20
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Stirring up the
Masters2009Sequencediscussionagain...</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">TW<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You have
missed the point. If you make FAI a destination class and apply the
progression rule it will definitely be a force which will in my
opinion reduce our ranks.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don't think
you understood my analysis of the location of the problem which is
entirely my opinion.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think
like Glen Watson that progression should be based on
ability to perform not on a series of events which in
some cases have nothing to do with ability or
performance. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">When we force
advancement on a person who is not ready to move up due to what ever the
case may be we are doing him an injustice and cutting off our nose to
spite our face.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Be real we
have the Pro's and those with similar ability who aspire to join that
group and possibly be a world champion and push products for the Hobby
Industry <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Then we
have the majority, the Good Old Boys which is most of us
who buy the stuff that the Pro group is
pushing.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Good Old
Boys just want to compete with each other progress according to our
ability, drink a few cool ones and generally enjoy our
sport. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Top GOB is
the one who wins Masters at the Nat's<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A GOB can jump
the fence if he wants to and be a WC want to be and if he doesn't like
the territory we will let him be a GOB again
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> But with
today's rules GOB's move up when the rules tell them to and that's where
some of our problems lie.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don't know
how to express my opinion any simpler than
that.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Buddy <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial
color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-TOP: 7.5pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-TOP: 7.5pt"><FONT face=Arial
color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Get a sneak
peek of the all-new <A
title=http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982
href="http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982"
target=_blank>AOL.com</A>.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
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