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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Matt, Lance, et al</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>No way am I advocating adding a class! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>My point is that by considering Masters the destination
class we've chosen to raise the bar for that class to near F3A to prevent
boredom for those who've reached the "destination" and, in effect, reduced the
classes available for developmental progression. If F3A were the destination
class (as it was at one time) the Masters sequence could establish a stable
median difficulty level between Advanced and F3A. I'm just offering an idea
based on something that worked and was abandoned, for something that may not be
working as well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I suppose that the progression sequences and advancement
criteria need to really be based on the
underlying motivation to compete. If one's intent is to collect
plaques at any cost - then our advancement system is paramount - force the
sandbaggers up to their level of incompetence (and then out). Doesn't seem
to be beneficial to pattern! If one's intent is to limit the challenge to
comfortable level where one can win regularly - forget about advancement and
progression, just allow each class to stand alone with whatever rules each
class wants (until folks get bored and quit). Doesn't seem very cohesive to me -
might as well fly 3D! Seems that if one's motivation is to enjoy a flying
challenge, improve one's skills at the game, and compete against one's
peers, we only need a reasonable progression of difficulty in the sequences with
an ultimate destination which may be different each individual (folks stick
around for the comradery or the competition). This is where I'd like our pattern
program to be!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I like the idea of advancement basis a percentage of
national performance. It might be even more interesting if a persons class could
move up or down each year! Think about it - not only would good flying require a
move up, but that performance would need be maintained (and one isn't "stuck
with it" if circumstances prevent that). Of course this would mean the NSRCA
would have to administer the program and CD's would need to submit
data. Hmmm, any bets on how well this would work? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I've competed in other venues that used something like
this - your % of local score after some number of rounds / events is compared to
the national average, a position above a "standard" window results in immediate
move up - while a position below results in an immediate move down. The number
of events / rounds is large enough to offset variety in judging, conditions,
etc. The system I'm familiar with makes no exception for making a move
immediately before the National event - there is definitely care exercised to
avoid this! Interestingly, some competitors work hard to earn the top
classification and then quit so as to maintain the "bragging rights" of that
prestigious position without having to work to maintain it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Earl</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@tx.rr.com href="mailto:patterndude@tx.rr.com">Lance Van
Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 13, 2007 11:02
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
StirringuptheMasters2009Sequencediscussionagain...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree. It was just the last rules cycle
that we voted for and instituted the 4 year window to address this. For
years before that, you could accumulate points and theoretically be forced up
- leading to obvious rule bending and counter productive arguments. Now
we have something better but it can be improved. I encourage anyone here
to write a proposal, maybe get some feedback from this list and your other
flying friends, and submit it. There is a rules cycle in progress.
In our district points in D6 we limit the points one can get at the Nats
because there are so many competitors, but D6 contests often have very large
turnouts so I agree that some sort of limit on points per contest, or a max #
contests that can be used, or a shorter window might be worth thinking
about.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm not so keen on adding a class. I
believe that Sportsman is a "real" class and we have 3 stepping stones to
Masters. It wasn't long ago I was in sportsman and my first year I
was only dabbling and I really sucked. When I started to try harder I
still needed the next season in Sportsman to learn enough basics before flying
a whole sequence without a box exit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Adding a class would mean 6 classes and 18
trophies. We already have 15 trophies per contest and that means over
half the entrants take home wood. A lot of contests have between 16 and
20 people and some classes only have 3 or less competitors. It's also
hard to fill judge seats as it is. The current # of steps is, IMO,
adequate when considering the logistical issues. This is a statement
of being practical. If I were to be emotional i would say that it
is always great to see the guy beating you move up so maybe we
should have even more classes <G>. As we all know, in other
countries there is only FAI so all of our stepping stones are better than
others get. If we can improve the advancement rules and be able to
refresh the sequences for other destination classes (Advanced) on the 2 year
cycle we'd provide the challenge and newness to prevent people from being
forced up or moving on due to boredom. If we have energy on this topic,
this is abetter focus for it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ejhaury@comcast.net href="mailto:ejhaury@comcast.net">Earl
Haury</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 13, 2007 4:55
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Stirring uptheMasters2009Sequencediscussionagain...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Buddy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What TW & I are suggesting is that
a fix for the large step between Advanced and Masters seems appropriate
and are offering one possible solution. Along with that, I agree with you
and Glen that there may need to be some adjustment to the points system.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Consider that the point system for advancement
addresses the primary issue of forcing advancement upon someone who has been
successful so as to provide "room at the top" for other competitors. A
failing with this is that it assumes folks won't move voluntarily - most do,
and often ill advised due to boredom in a specific class. Unfortunately, the
system assumes everyone will eventually need to move up. That's obviously
not always the case and some are faced with moving up or quitting - not a
good choice! The ability to drop off points 4 years back helps the GOB - but
possibly not in areas with lots of contests with large numbers of
competitors. Maybe a limit on the number of points acquired in any one
contest would help?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So - the conversation is twofold, progression
of difficulty within the classes being one topic and progression of
competitors within the classes the other.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=twtaylor@ftc-i.net href="mailto:twtaylor@ftc-i.net">twtaylor</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 13, 2007 4:43
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Stirring up theMasters2009Sequencediscussionagain...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi
Buddy<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I understand your
point and I agree. Given the rules, as they are now, progression is a
given. We can lobby to replace the advancement rules easily enough. My
point was to make FAI a destination class as imho it should be. Not taking
anything away from the Master Pilots but the guy that can fly and win
Masters can fly and win in FAI. Seems to me we have two nearly identical
classes and for what reason? What goal are we trying to achieve doing
this? The goal of the entire sport is to advance a flier from beginner to
at least national/regional contender, no? I understand the GOB deal.
What we did way back when was to really make FAI the top class, renamed
Expert to Masters and called it an evening. Do I think Arch or Glenn could
make the finals in FAI at our Nats? You dang skippy I do. Can I win an FAI
contests locally? Probably not this year but maybe next. IMHO The reason
we see such a large turn out in Masters and not FAI is because many don’t
want to fly against QQ and Chip and The Animal. Here’s one to
ponder.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jason goes to the
worlds and wins the whole thing and makes us proud as we can be. Guess
what? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">IIRC the current
rules allow Jason to fly masters, oh wait, If memory serves me Jason
didn’t point out of Advance he jumped straight from Advance to FAI. He
could win the worlds then come home and fly his next contest in Advance.
Wouldn’t that cause a stir! I know he won’t but he could. Back when I was
flying Expert Turn Around and won pretty much every contest I entered,
Kirk Grey decided to bring me down a peg or two,(Well actually 10 or so)
at a contest in NC he dropped back from FAI to Expert. Taught me a great
lesson he did. (Said in my best Yoda voice.) </SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Wingdings color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of
</SPAN></B>BUDDYonRC@aol.com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, August 13, 2007 5:20
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Stirring up the
Masters2009Sequencediscussionagain...</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">TW<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You have missed
the point. If you make FAI a destination class and apply the progression
rule it will definitely be a force which will in my opinion reduce
our ranks.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don't think
you understood my analysis of the location of the problem which is
entirely my opinion.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think
like Glen Watson that progression should be based on ability to
perform not on a series of events which in some cases have
nothing to do with ability or
performance. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">When we force
advancement on a person who is not ready to move up due to what ever the
case may be we are doing him an injustice and cutting off our nose to
spite our face.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Be real we have
the Pro's and those with similar ability who aspire to join that group and
possibly be a world champion and push products for the Hobby Industry
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Then we
have the majority, the Good Old Boys which is most of us who buy
the stuff that the Pro group is
pushing.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Good Old
Boys just want to compete with each other progress according to our
ability, drink a few cool ones and generally enjoy our
sport. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Top GOB is
the one who wins Masters at the Nat's<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A GOB can jump
the fence if he wants to and be a WC want to be and if he doesn't like the
territory we will let him be a GOB again
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> But with
today's rules GOB's move up when the rules tell them to and that's where
some of our problems lie.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don't know how
to express my opinion any simpler than
that.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Buddy <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Arial
color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-TOP: 7.5pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-TOP: 7.5pt"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Get
a sneak peek of the all-new <A
title=http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982
href="http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982"
target=_blank>AOL.com</A>.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
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mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
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mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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