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<DIV><EM><FONT face="Lucida Sans" color=#000080 size=1>I see that this subject
is turning into a flaming ball of crap. LOL</FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Lucida Sans" color=#000080 size=1></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face="Lucida Sans" color=#000080 size=1>Matthew
Liprie</FONT></EM></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000080 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=lld613@psci.net href="mailto:lld613@psci.net">Lisa & Larry</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 26, 2007 7:18
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5
Going too far.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Derek,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Based on what you
have stated and understanding from my discussions with you, I need to be the
first to apologize to the NSRCA and Board members as promised in a previous
e-mail.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I do believe that the
NSRCA was working with the AMA. For those that ask if the rules were followed
by the NSRCA, the answer is yes. I was one of those people that initiated this
line of questioning early with strong comments. I do believe the NSRCA Board
acted in the best interest of the NSRCA while working with the AMA. This
doesn’t mean the decision is popular. Most correct decisions are
not.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">With that said, we
need to start looking forward and beyond. Eric has rights to address this with
the AMA and request an appeal. As tough as this may sound, even the finest
judicial system in the world is not perfect and innocent people get sentenced.
If confronted with information that indicates wrong doing by someone, I would
deliver a decision based on the information in front of
me.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I have much respect
for Eric and all those being named in previous. If not for them and their
individual sacrifices, we would not have the NSRCA. I’m not a well known pilot
in pattern, but all those that I have meet I hold in high
regard.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’m done with this
thread….signing off<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Larry
Diamond</SPAN></FONT></st1:PersonName><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">NSRCA
3083<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">AMA
5024<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Derek Koopowitz<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:25
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5
Going too far.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I've seen some really good words flying around this
topic lately - banning, lynching, secretive, uninformed, etc. None of it
is true.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The NSRCA worked in concert with the AMA on these
charges - everything was done on the up and up and we were in consultation
with them from the beginning and they fully supported the outcome. There
are other issues beyond the bias charges that the AMA has dealt with (or is
dealing with) concerning the individual and since we host the pattern
Nationals the AMA asked us to review the data and to make a determination as
to whether the bias allegations were valid, and then to make a ruling as to
what the punishment would be. We ruled on that after reviewing all the
data - and, yes, it is mathematically/statistically possible to make a
determination based on one round of data. The full scale aerobatic
community uses TBLP on a round by round basis to determine potential bias - we
did not use TBLP but the data supports the bias allegations.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The NSRCA board did not jump up and down screaming
"yahoo" when the outcome was reached - I think every person on the board
was a little saddened by it. I think the bottom line that everyone
should remember is that regardless of who the individuals were and what their
character is like, bias was present and we needed to make a decision as to the
punishment. As someone from D1 mentioned to me in a private email -
there has been a long history of acrimony/bias between the people concerned
and unfortunately it showed itself in one round of scoring at the Nationals.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=gmailquote><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On 6/26/07, <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">W. Hinkle</SPAN></B> <<A
href="mailto:whinkle1024@msn.com">whinkle1024@msn.com</A>>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></SPAN> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Dave is a good pilot but character being beyond
reproach is a bit of a<BR>stretch. Ask John Glizellis about when Dave shot him
down and haggled over <BR>the price. This was to replace a brand new model
with less than 30 flights<BR>on it at the NATS. The incident was at the NATS
during practice at the AMA<BR>field. We all make mistakes, but to penny pinch
the guy that just cost his <BR>new model part way through the Nationals. JR
had to step in and forced the<BR>hand. If it had not been for Dave the
sponsorship threat Dave would still be<BR>argueing the price of a new built
model. Dave replaced it after some debate <BR>with JR. This is not character
beyond reproach? Dave may be a good guy just<BR>don't be on the same freq.
He'll tell how poor your model is built and its<BR>not worth the price of a
professional built kit.<BR><BR>I'll agree that both parties in this fight are
not angels. I'm not a fan or<BR>Eric's but my question to this
forum<BR><BR>Why is the NSRCA involved at all?<BR><BR>Doesn't the NSRCA have
better things to do with its time and energy than <BR>lynching a judge at the
request of a couple pilots that have character<BR>beyond reproach?<BR><BR>I
feel this is another sign of the NSRCA just wasting resources, time
and<BR>money in the name of being the Savior of pattern flying. Beware people
<BR>beware. Come on. Getting two of Dave's best buddies in D1 to write a
program<BR>to damn a person that they and David hate with a passion. To me is
smells<BR>like old shellfish. These were the same judges who claimed in the
past the <BR>judge that gave the zero was the one that got it
right.<BR><BR>The NSRCA has no business in this arena. I find it appalling the
Board even<BR>had this on the agenda. I also find it appalling that a ruling
was made,<BR>then Eric was notified of the charges and the conviction. As Eric
stated, no<BR>statistics can determine what the judge actually saw or better
yet what the<BR>pilot actually flew. So Eric's scores were below the average
for a given <BR>pilot. Maybe the pilot flew below average in Eric's eyes. This
is why the<BR>NATS uses more than one judge. This is a fact of life. This
looks very one<BR>sided by the NSRCA.<BR><BR>The NSRCA has no place in this
squabble. <BR><BR><BR>>From: "John Pavlick" <<A
href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">jpavlick@idseng.com</A>><BR>>Reply-To:
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName> <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
</A>><BR>>To: "<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing
List</st1:PersonName>" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.<BR>>Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007
01:27:00 -0400 <BR>><BR>>Len,<BR>> All of the people
involved were from D1 - I thought the good ol' boys<BR>>were in D2 and D3!
<LOL><BR>><BR>>John Pavlick<BR>><A
href="http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com </A><BR>>
----- Original Message -----<BR>> From: Leonard
Rudy<BR>> To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing
List</st1:PersonName><BR>> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:47
PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too
far.<BR>><BR>><BR>>
John,<BR>><BR>> The
conflict may have blossomed like a Hockey Game Conflict, but in<BR>>the
NHL<BR>> those "with the power" hear both sides and let each
side present their <BR>>case before<BR>> the powers to be
assign penalties. After the penalties are imposed,
the<BR>>player or<BR>> individual still has the right to
appeal the
decision.<BR>> You say Eric
should take whatever the powers to be want and don't <BR>>make
any<BR>> noise or
waves.<BR>> This is a clear
message to others who will be judging at meets in<BR>>the
future. DO NOT GIVE THE GOOD OLD BOYS GROUP any low or bad scores
or<BR>>you may be on the receiving end of some form of penalty that you
will not <BR>>like.<BR>><BR>> Len
Rudy<BR>> "Life is easier if you learn to plow
around the stumps" or in other<BR>>words, do not<BR>> hand
out low scores to the Good Old Boys or you will pay dearly for it <BR>>one
way or<BR>> another.<BR>><BR>> Fred Huber
<<A href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">fhhuber@clearwire.net</A>>
wrote:<BR>> The penalty does not appear
appropriate...<BR>><BR>> It also sounds like it
was not applied in a manner consistant with the <BR>>rules
system.<BR>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>> From: John
Ferrell<BR>> To: Don Ramsey ;
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing
List</st1:PersonName><BR>> Sent:
Monday, June 25, 2007 8:12 AM<BR>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
<BR>><BR>><BR>> I have the good
fortune to not be involved in this dispute. I am<BR>>only aware of the
conflict.<BR>><BR>> Not being very
good at staying out of arguments, I offer the<BR>>following observations:
<BR>> A heated difference of opinions
occurred.<BR>> Every one involved is
considered a valuable asset to the
Pattern<BR>>Game.<BR>> Things were
said that should not have been
said.<BR>> Every one thinks they are
right. <BR>> There was probably at
least one (or may be several) bad call(s) by<BR>>some
one.<BR>><BR>> The conflict
blossomed like a Hockey Game Conflict and the net<BR>>result was those with
the power and responsibility treated it like a Hockey <BR>>Game Conflict! A
serious "time out" was assigned to the individual at the<BR>>focal point of
the conflict. It was their duty to put the problem on
ice.<BR>><BR>> The expectations of
the rest of us who value the game and its <BR>>players is that right or
wrong the referee's call must be honored. The<BR>>referee has the power to
impose further penalties if the individual<BR>>continues to make waves.
Right or wrong, this is the was disputes are <BR>>handled in the world of
competition.<BR>><BR>> If the
individual was drawn into the conflict by goading it is still<BR>>he who
gets the penalty.<BR>><BR>> Conflict
resolution is not something that is natural to the human <BR>>condition.
Conflict is.<BR>><BR>> Eric needs to
take the penalty and get on with things.Those in power<BR>>need to accept
that the penalty has been applied and to continue the
game.<BR>><BR>> WE ALL need to be
aware that we either play nice or get sent to the
<BR>>showers!<BR>><BR>> Another
factor to consider is that the higher profile one achieves<BR>>in this
sport the greater the need to hold that individual to
higher<BR>>standards.<BR>> Eric is
certainly a "high profile" player.
<BR>><BR>> John
Ferrell W8CCW<BR>>
"Life is easier if you learn to
plow<BR>> around
the stumps"<BR>> <A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR>><BR>>
----- Original Message
-----<BR>> From: Don
Ramsey<BR>> To:
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing
List</st1:PersonName><BR>>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 7:32
PM<BR>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Chapter-5 Going too far.
<BR>><BR>><BR>> I
would like to thank Eric for the nice complement in his comment,<BR>>"To
circumvent this conflict of interest problem and to keep the
Nationals<BR>>above reproach, I steeped out of line and asked Don Ramsey to
independently <BR>>choose the judges, Dave could not refuse this method,
but I will tell you<BR>>that he got extremely mad at me for doing
it."<BR>><BR>> I must
respond that for good or bad I've been choosing the finals <BR>>judges for
many years. I started that process when Jeff Hill was
Event<BR>>Director. It must also be stated that I've never had
any pressure of any<BR>>kind from contest management regarding who I choose
to judge. I try to <BR>>pick the best candidates and rotate
those so no single judge can influence<BR>>the outcome
extradionarly.<BR>><BR>>
Don<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
<BR>><BR>>
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