<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">I have a built-in problem with someone being able to "buy" a win. It comes from when I entered the Soapbox Derby as a 14 year old. In my first race, I was beaten buy a kid who eventually won the whole race. My dad could afford to buy me an official set of wheels, but no more. The father of the kid who beat me bought ten sets of wheels and they were able to select the four best wheels. If a rule enables only the "rich" to compete successfully with an e-powered airplane, it gets my hackles up.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Ron Van Putte</DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Jun 22, 2007, at 9:54 AM, Dave Lockhart wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><O:SMARTTAGTYPE namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"> <DIV class="Section1"><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Ron / John,<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> <SPAN style="">Point taken. And no offense, but so what? As a kid, I was never the biggest guy on the playing fields……but I loved to play anyway and never asked for a head start, an extra kick, or an extra swing. I’m still not the “biggest kid”, and some of the most fun I’ve had was whooping up on the “superior” equipment back when I couldn’t afford the latest greatest Skippy Propnut TurboZoot 9000 XL MkVII Touring edition limited SE with the add-ons.</SPAN></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">The average guy can’t afford many things…..like the Naruke edition Astral flown by McMurtry at the 2006 NATs? Or even the Oxai version…..or even the Xtreme version.</SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Your argument could be extended to many things…….2C vs 4C (as if you could get a consensus on which is “better”)………..analog vs digital servos………….guys flying electrics w/ NIcd or Nimh because they can’t afford lipos………and on an on.</SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Pattern competition is a competitive event with some broad limits (weight, size, noise). You have your choices, you pick what is most competitive for your available budget, you practice, you compete. You win, or you lose.</SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">If you / John don’t think electric is competitive under the current rules, fly glow.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P><SPAN style="">Others think electric is competitive and are flying electric.</SPAN></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Again, electric is in its infancy……make a rule now that favors electrics and you will ensure unquestionable electric dominance in the very near future. Just remember the 120 4C….it was to allow parity between a piped 60 2C and allow a quieter powerplant. Very shortsighted rule as the 120 4C became dominant rapidly. Clearly the gap (if there is one) between electric and glow today is nothing like the 2C / 4C gap was in ~1988 (when 2C 60s dominated 120 4Cs) or now (when a 120 4C dominates 60 2Cs).</SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">By definition, the average guy will never be able to afford the highest level setup. And that has never prevented something like a humble wooden Focus from winning the NATs…..at any level.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Regards,<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Dave<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV> <DIV class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size:12.0pt"> <HR size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><B><FONT size="2" face="Tahoma"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size="2" face="Tahoma"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] <B><SPAN style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Ron Van Putte<BR> <B><SPAN style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, June 22, 2007 10:27 AM<BR> <B><SPAN style="font-weight:bold">To:</SPAN></B> <ST1:PERSONNAME w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</ST1:PERSONNAME><BR> <B><SPAN style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">It is said that you can't understand a person's problems until you've walked a mile in their shoes. John and I didn't understand what the problems were regarding making weight with electric-powered airplanes until he decided to compete with one. I am still competing with a glow-powered Focus.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">John's airplane is under 5 Kg, but not by much. Due to an extensive weight-saving building job on his Black Magic by Mike Hester and John's careful selection and installation of radio, batteries, ESC, prop, motor, spinner, et al, his airplane is OK with weight, even in the kind of winds we often see at the Nats. He's thinking about the guys who can't afford as much $$$ as he has invested in his setup. The average guy probably can't build an electric-powered 2 meter airplane that makes weight and is competitive with the kind of budget required for a glow-powered version of the same airplane. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">Ron Van Putte<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">The learning curve is very steep. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">On Jun 21, 2007, at 11:54 PM, Keith Black wrote:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><BR> <BR> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">I fly electric but still would be against this proposal. </SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">John F. makes some good points in his justification, however, I simply think that Dave's counter points out "weigh" John's points.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">I think if you read Dave's post with an open mind and not a pre-conceived "position" you feel you have to protect you'll find his logic very compelling. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">BTW, I find this change of heart by you and John quite amusing. This is probably unfair but it almost sounds as if one of you can't get your new e-plane to make weight with the current rules. I'm sure that's not true, but from the outside it certainly appears that way.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">I hope the real reason for "floating" this idea was to get people opinions. If so I'm beginning to see a trend.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">Keith Black</SPAN></FONT> <O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">----- Original Message ----- <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <DIV style="font-color:black"><P class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> <A href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net" title="vanputte@cox.net">Ron Van Putte</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> Thursday, June 21, 2007 7:38 PM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">I was also not aware that glow-powered airplanes needed the handicap they already have. I agree that, with innovative design and $$$, electric-powered airplanes can compete with glow-powered airplanes. The ones who suffer from the weight inequity are those who can't afford the $$$ to overcome the weight inequity. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">Ron Van Putte<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">On Jun 21, 2007, at 6:59 PM, John Ferrell wrote:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><BR> <BR> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">I did not realize that the Electrics were in need of a handicap. They seem to be doing just fine against the recips under current rules. </SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">If you really think they need a little help by all means give them a rule book boost!</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt">John Ferrell W8CCW<BR> "Life is easier if you learn to plow <BR> around the stumps"<BR> <A href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">----- Original Message ----- <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV style="font-color:black"><P class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> <A href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net" title="vanputte@cox.net">Ron Van Putte</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> Thursday, June 21, 2007 2:44 PM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size="2" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"> [NSRCA-discussion] Airplane Weight Limits<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">I just got this response from John Fuqua.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Ron Van Putte</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="3" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size: 12.0pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="apple-style-span"><FONT size="1" color="#0000fc" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#0000FC">The guys are missing the point. It is not about what can be achieved on weight. It is what is permitted by the rules. They are not arguing the logic of what the rules allow (in most cases) but examples of what has been achieved. Please make that point. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="apple-style-span"><FONT size="1" color="#0000fc" face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#0000FC">John</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="1" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> </DIV><P style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:4.5pt; margin-left:0in;MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><FONT size="1" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="apple-style-span"><B><FONT size="1" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;font-weight:bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN class="apple-style-span"><FONT size="1" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Helvetica"> Ron Van Putte [<A href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">mailto:vanputte@cox.net</A>] </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="apple-style-span"><B><FONT size="1" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;font-weight:bold">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN class="apple-style-span"><FONT size="1" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Helvetica"> Thursday, June 21, 2007 1:18 PM</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="apple-style-span"><B><FONT size="1" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;font-weight:bold">To:</SPAN></FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN class="apple-style-span"><FONT size="1" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Helvetica"> Fuqua John D Mr CTR USAF 697 ARSF/EN</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV><P class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="apple-style-span"><B><FONT size="1" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;font-weight:bold">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN class="apple-style-span"><FONT size="1" face="Helvetica"><SPAN style="font-size:7.5pt; font-family:Helvetica"> Fwd: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Electric Weight Proposal Logic and Rationale</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P> </DIV> <DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><P class="MsoNormal"><FONT size="1" face="Arial"><SPAN style="font-size:9.0pt; 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