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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>DaveL322@comcast.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 21, 2007 4:31
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Fwd: Electric Weight Proposal LogicandRationale</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Fred,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>And they have quit improving glow engines?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>********Certainly glow continues to improve, but as a well established
medium, it is not improving at the same rate as electric.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Didn't they just come out with a 2.0 ci glow engine thats light enough
to stick on a Pattern plane?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>********Yes.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Saying we can't do something because technology wil advance means
you must want to go back to the days when the Sig King Kobra was a top of the
line plane. Anything with higher performance than thhat had using 1975
technology is not allowed.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>********That was not my statement. My statement was that a rules
change for an intended purpose needs be additionally evaluated for unintended
consequences (pattern has a long history of unintended consequences from short
sighted rules).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Case in point IMAC. </span></font><font
size=4 color=navy face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font size=4 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Glow planes DO bennefit from carrying more weight... you can bolt on
that 2.0 ci engine and carry a 30 oz fuel tank to feed it.... and because you
weigh empty you gain the bennefits of added power making the added fuel weight
inconsequential. Glow can compensate for the higher fuel consumption that
comes with higher power and not blink.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>********Fair enough. However, the intended context/framework was
the comparison of additional weight in the form of fuel to a glow plane with no
other changes, and the addition of weight (in the form of battery) to an
electric plane with no other changes. The intended context aside, there
are also several other complicating factors such as wingloading, noise,
structural considerations, etc.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>The basic conclusions I made remain unchanged.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Regards,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
Dave<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:Davel322@comcast.net" title="Davel322@comcast.net">Davel322@comcast.net</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Thursday, June 21,
2007 12:09 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Electric Weight Proposal Logic andRationale<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Not a good proposal.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The fatal flaw is this - Glow planes receive no benefit from carrying
additional weight. Adding weight to glow reduces the power to weight
ratio, carrying un-needed fuel detracts from performance. Adding more
battery weight to an electric could substantially increase the power output AND
power to weight ratio.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Additionally, the proposal fails to acknowledge the inherent benefits
of electrics over glow (reduced structure is possible with reduced vibration,
reduced finish is possible with lack of oil...and many more).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>An additional flaw (conceptually) is that this idea is very
shortsighted. Electrics are still in their infancy. The motors,
batteries, and ESCs will all get lighter and more efficient (and cheaper) with
future develepment. Airframes tailored for electric will continue to
improve further reducing weight. Within the existing rules structure, a
very solid arguement could be made that electrics can already achieve equal
performance to glow, and a very solid arguement could also be made that a
cutting edge electric has better performance than a cutting edge glow.
Electrics do not need any additional advantages at this time and will be
dominant in the near future within the existing rules structure.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>An average flying weight for glow of 11.5 lbs assumes the average dry
weight is 11 lbs. 11 lbs is not the average dry weight.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The assumption that 20 fluid oz is the average tank size needed for
completion of a pattern flight assumes a Masters or FAI preliminary
flight. Not all flights are for Masters and FAI. Substantially less
fuel is needed for Adv, Int, and Sportsman. Further, the assumption would
also seem to be based on a glow engine with a very high fuel consumption
ratio. Plenty of 2C setups complete Masters and FAI on 12 oz.....well
managed 4Cs do almost as well. Perhaps 14 fluid oz would be a better
average (~11 oz actual weight).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The past few years, I've been fortunate to be flying some very high
quality composite models (glow Vivats and electric Prestiges). The Vivats
were 9 lbs 14 oz + 12 oz of fuel (more than enough for the Webra 160MC to get
through 1.5 PO7s) for an average flight weight of 10 lbs 4 oz. My
electric Prestige with TP5300s was 10 lbs even on the 2006 NATs
scale.....current configuration puts it at 10 lbs 3 oz. At ~$1900 USD per
copy, the Vivat and Prestige are not cheap, but hardly the most expensive
option. On the lower end of the price scale, there are plenty of options
from UltraRC, Fliton, etc, that can be well under weight electric or
glow. The Black Magic series is among the biggest planes currently and
recently available and can be built at 10 lbs electric and well under 10 lbs
glow.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Applicable to this proposal (and others past, current, future) is that
the proposal should be evaluated from the perspective of a competitor looking
for a competitive advantage - ie, not how the proposal will effect current
equipment/desigsn, but what higher levels of performance could potentially be
achieved by a competitor looking to exploit the new rules. Historically,
any increase in size, weight, or displacement has resulted in larger and more
expensive airframes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Dave Lockhart<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: Ron Van Putte <vanputte@cox.net> <br>
I got the following from John Fuqua. He is going to submit a proposal to
increase the weight limit for electric-powered airplanes to 11.5 lbs. I
suggested to him that he "float" his rationale by the NSRCA
Discussion List, to get some feedback. Here is his response. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Ron Van Putte<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Begin forwarded message:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Date:
</span></font></b><font size=1 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Helvetica'>June 21, 2007 10:40:36 AM CDT</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black;font-weight:bold'>To: </span></font></b><font
size=1 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>"Ron
Van Putte" <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:
</span></font></b><b><font size=1 face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Helvetica;font-weight:bold'>Electric Weight Proposal Logic and
Rationale</span></font></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='MIN-HEIGHT: 14px'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Now
that I am flying electrics I have come to realize the penalty that electric
planes have when being built that gas planes to not have. That building penalty
is significant under the current rules. Electrics must be built lighter, to
include paranoid attention to everything used - wood, paint, fittings, etc., -
all to make weight. Much more of a concern than gas planes. Also I remember
many instances at the NATs when we were weighing airplanes, when the contestant
was doing all he could do to meet weight with a gas plane to include cleaning
the fuel residue inside and out. A lot of gas planes were weighing in at 10lb
11oz, 10lb 11.9 oz, even one that was only a few grams under 5 kilos. Then they
get to add a minimum of 16 to 20 ozs of weight by fueling up (and there is no
limit to fuel capacity). Takeoff weights are 12 lbs or more. This situation
seems bizarre and illogical when you put some thought into it. Electrics have a
finite weight and gas! ! plane s are open ended at Takeoff. Even though the
2005 NSRCA survey did not support an electric weight increase it occurred to me
that the survey did not offer any logic or rationale as to why some increase
would be justified or not. I have attempted below to come up with a reasonable
compromise on electric weight allowance. I believe the rationale supports an
increase but it would be nice to have NSRCA membership look at it to find the
fatal flaw in the rationale before it gets submitted. The two paras below are
taken from the proposed change. Lets put it out and see what the discussion
list comes up with.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>John</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Change
paragraph 4.3 Weight and Size page RCA-2 to read: No model may weigh more than
5 kilograms (11 pounds) gross, but excluding fuel, ready for takeoff. Electric
models are weighed with batteries<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'> and are allowed an additional 8 ounces for a total of 11.5
pounds ready for takeoff.</span></i></b> No model may have a wingspan or total
length longer than two (2) meters (78.74 inches).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
font-weight:bold'>Logic behind proposed change, including alleged shortcomings
of the present rules. State intent for future reference.</span></font></b> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Todays
2 meter RC Aerobatics fuel powered aircraft typically use fuel tanks with a 20
fluid ounce capacity. A 20 fluid ounce Crank Tank containing 25% Cool Power Pro
Pattern fuel was tested. The fuel weighed 17.3 ounces. Allowing for variation
in tank sizes and fuel type a conservative weight of 16 ounces of fuel on
average seems appropriate. This means that an allowable takeoff weight for fuel
powered aircraft is at least 12 pounds. Assuming that all fuel is consumed during
the flight, the average weight for the aircraft is 11.5 pounds. By restricting
electric powered aircraft to the takeoff weight of unfueled aircraft an unfair
weight penalty is being arbitrarily imposed against the electric model. By
allowing electric aircraft an AVERAGE flying weight of the fuel powered
aircraft, flying weight equity is restored.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
Checked by AVG Free Edition. <br>
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.4/860 - Release Date: 6/21/2007 5:53
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