<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">It's not true that the "playing field" is even if both are weighed with full fuel. As soon as the non-electric airplane started using fuel, it would be lighter than the electric airplane and would be so for the entire flight.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I actually like the last argument (weigh both without fuel or tank), but it might be difficult to apply, since a lot of fuel tanks are hard to get to.</DIV><DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Ron Van Putte</DIV><DIV><BR><DIV><DIV>On Jun 21, 2007, at 6:10 PM, Fred Huber wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV><FONT size="2">Again... weigh both full fuel and the "playing field" is even.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">Weighing empty was decided on for convenience of the CD and the helpers at the weigh-in.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">If you weigh with tank empty... and the weight limit is maximum allowed, then having fuel in can only hurt you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">If you weigh in the planes full of fuel, then people can come up with ways to make the tank hold less durring weigh-in. (Strap that velcro around it TIGHT and reduce the tank volume for example)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">While the easier to get away with tricks would only give a marginal change. (maybe 1/2 to 1 oz for the velcro trick) that little bit could mean the difference between making weight or being disqualified.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">E-power planes are being weighed with each pack that is allowed to be used at the contest. (at the NATS) and that can lead to some LONG weigh-ins... Just as an inspection to ensure the glow models really do have a full tank when weighed. Thats just the way it is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">It could be argued that the e-power plane's battery is just fuel... and thus shouldn't be included AT ALL in its weigh-in... Pull the glow plane's fuel tank.. and weigh both without fuel or tank...</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title="DaveL322@comcast.net" href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 21, 2007 3:30 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Electric Weight Proposal LogicandRationale</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Fred,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">And they have quit improving glow engines?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">********Certainly glow continues to improve, but as a well established medium, it is not improving at the same rate as electric.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">Didn't they just come out with a 2.0 ci glow engine thats light enough to stick on a Pattern plane?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">********Yes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">Saying we can't do something because technology wil advance means you must want to go back to the days when the Sig King Kobra was a top of the line plane. Anything with higher performance than thhat had using 1975 technology is not allowed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">********That was not my statement. My statement was that a rules change for an intended purpose needs be additionally evaluated for unintended consequences (pattern has a long history of unintended consequences from short sighted rules).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">Glow planes DO bennefit from carrying more weight... you can bolt on that 2.0 ci engine and carry a 30 oz fuel tank to feed it.... and because you weigh empty you gain the bennefits of added power making the added fuel weight inconsequential. Glow can compensate for the higher fuel consumption that comes with higher power and not blink.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">********Fair enough. However, the intended context/framework was the comparison of additional weight in the form of fuel to a glow plane with no other changes, and the addition of weight (in the form of battery) to an electric plane with no other changes. The intended context aside, there are also several other complicating factors such as wingloading, noise, structural considerations, etc.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">The basic conclusions I made remain unchanged.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2">Regards,</FONT></DIV><FONT size="2"> <DIV><BR>Dave</DIV> </FONT><DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title="Davel322@comcast.net" href="mailto:Davel322@comcast.net">Davel322@comcast.net</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 21, 2007 12:09 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Electric Weight Proposal Logic andRationale</DIV> <DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV>Not a good proposal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fatal flaw is this - Glow planes receive no benefit from carrying additional weight. Adding weight to glow reduces the power to weight ratio, carrying un-needed fuel detracts from performance. Adding more battery weight to an electric could substantially increase the power output AND power to weight ratio.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Additionally, the proposal fails to acknowledge the inherent benefits of electrics over glow (reduced structure is possible with reduced vibration, reduced finish is possible with lack of oil...and many more).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An additional flaw (conceptually) is that this idea is very shortsighted. Electrics are still in their infancy. The motors, batteries, and ESCs will all get lighter and more efficient (and cheaper) with future develepment. Airframes tailored for electric will continue to improve further reducing weight. Within the existing rules structure, a very solid arguement could be made that electrics can already achieve equal performance to glow, and a very solid arguement could also be made that a cutting edge electric has better performance than a cutting edge glow. Electrics do not need any additional advantages at this time and will be dominant in the near future within the existing rules structure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An average flying weight for glow of 11.5 lbs assumes the average dry weight is 11 lbs. 11 lbs is not the average dry weight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The assumption that 20 fluid oz is the average tank size needed for completion of a pattern flight assumes a Masters or FAI preliminary flight. Not all flights are for Masters and FAI. Substantially less fuel is needed for Adv, Int, and Sportsman. Further, the assumption would also seem to be based on a glow engine with a very high fuel consumption ratio. Plenty of 2C setups complete Masters and FAI on 12 oz.....well managed 4Cs do almost as well. Perhaps 14 fluid oz would be a better average (~11 oz actual weight).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The past few years, I've been fortunate to be flying some very high quality composite models (glow Vivats and electric Prestiges). The Vivats were 9 lbs 14 oz + 12 oz of fuel (more than enough for the Webra 160MC to get through 1.5 PO7s) for an average flight weight of 10 lbs 4 oz. My electric Prestige with TP5300s was 10 lbs even on the 2006 NATs scale.....current configuration puts it at 10 lbs 3 oz. At ~$1900 USD per copy, the Vivat and Prestige are not cheap, but hardly the most expensive option. On the lower end of the price scale, there are plenty of options from UltraRC, Fliton, etc, that can be well under weight electric or glow. The Black Magic series is among the biggest planes currently and recently available and can be built at 10 lbs electric and well under 10 lbs glow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Applicable to this proposal (and others past, current, future) is that the proposal should be evaluated from the perspective of a competitor looking for a competitive advantage - ie, not how the proposal will effect current equipment/desigsn, but what higher levels of performance could potentially be achieved by a competitor looking to exploit the new rules. Historically, any increase in size, weight, or displacement has resulted in larger and more expensive airframes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV> <DIV><A href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: Ron Van Putte <<A href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</A>> <BR>I got the following from John Fuqua. He is going to submit a proposal to increase the weight limit for electric-powered airplanes to 11.5 lbs. I suggested to him that he "float" his rationale by the NSRCA Discussion List, to get some feedback. Here is his response. <DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV> <DIV>Ron Van Putte<BR> <DIV><BR> <DIV>Begin forwarded message:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: #000000" face="Helvetica" color="#000000" size="3"><B>Date: </B></FONT><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica" face="Helvetica" size="3">June 21, 2007 10:40:36 AM CDT</FONT></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: #000000" face="Helvetica" color="#000000" size="3"><B>To: </B></FONT><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica" face="Helvetica" size="3">"Ron Van Putte" <<A href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</A>></FONT></DIV> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: #000000" face="Helvetica" color="#000000" size="3"><B>Subject: </B></FONT><FONT style="FONT: 12px Helvetica" face="Helvetica" size="3"><B>Electric Weight Proposal Logic and Rationale</B></FONT></DIV> <DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV><P><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Now that I am flying electrics I have come to realize the penalty that electric planes have when being built that gas planes to not have. That building penalty is significant under the current rules. Electrics must be built lighter, to include paranoid attention to everything used - wood, paint, fittings, etc., - all to make weight. Much more of a concern than gas planes. Also I remember many instances at the NATs when we were weighing airplanes, when the contestant was doing all he could do to meet weight with a gas plane to include cleaning the fuel residue inside and out. A lot of gas planes were weighing in at 10lb 11oz, 10lb 11.9 oz, even one that was only a few grams under 5 kilos. Then they get to add a minimum of 16 to 20 ozs of weight by fueling up (and there is no limit to fuel capacity). Takeoff weights are 12 lbs or more. This situation seems bizarre and illogical when you put some thought into it. Electrics have a finite weight and gas! ! plane s are open ended at Takeoff. Even though the 2005 NSRCA survey did not support an electric weight increase it occurred to me that the survey did not offer any logic or rationale as to why some increase would be justified or not. I have attempted below to come up with a reasonable compromise on electric weight allowance. I believe the rationale supports an increase but it would be nice to have NSRCA membership look at it to find the fatal flaw in the rationale before it gets submitted. The two paras below are taken from the proposed change. Lets put it out and see what the discussion list comes up with.</FONT></P><P><FONT face="Arial" size="2">John</FONT> </P><P><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Change paragraph 4.3 Weight and Size page RCA-2 to read: No model may weigh more than 5 kilograms (11 pounds) gross, but excluding fuel, ready for takeoff. Electric models are weighed with batteries<B><I> and are allowed an additional 8 ounces for a total of 11.5 pounds ready for takeoff.</I></B><I></I> No model may have a wingspan or total length longer than two (2) meters (78.74 inches).</FONT></P><BR><P><B><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Logic behind proposed change, including alleged shortcomings of the present rules. State intent for future reference.</FONT></B> </P><P><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Today’s 2 meter RC Aerobatics fuel powered aircraft typically use fuel tanks with a 20 fluid ounce capacity. A 20 fluid ounce Crank Tank containing 25% Cool Power Pro Pattern fuel was tested. The fuel weighed 17.3 ounces. Allowing for variation in tank sizes and fuel type a conservative weight of 16 ounces of fuel on average seems appropriate. This means that an allowable takeoff weight for fuel powered aircraft is at least 12 pounds. Assuming that all fuel is consumed during the flight, the average weight for the aircraft is 11.5 pounds. By restricting electric powered aircraft to the takeoff weight of unfueled aircraft an unfair weight penalty is being arbitrarily imposed against the electric model. By allowing electric aircraft an AVERAGE flying weight of the fuel powered aircraft, flying weight equity is restored.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV> <BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><HR><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <DIV> <BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><HR><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free Edition. <BR>Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.4/860 - Release Date: 6/21/2007 5:53 PM<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV> <BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><HR><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <DIV> <BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><HR><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free Edition. <BR>Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.4/860 - Release Date: 6/21/2007 5:53 PM<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">_______________________________________________</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">NSRCA-discussion mailing list</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>