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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith and Mark, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am with you guys. I would never put myself in a
position to judge higher classes than I have flown at this time. There are so
many nuances in each maneuver, especially with windy conditions, that asking
someone in Intermediate to judge a higher class would not only be a disservice
to the competitor but also those asked to judge. I think being judged by those
who have "been there" is the only fair course of action for all
involved.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If this rubs some the wrong way I am sorry but let
us be honest in this. I decided to move up to Intermediate and have yet to make
a meet in that class. Who does it serve for me to judge Advanced at my first
contest as a freshly minted Intermediate pilot? Not me and not those I would
have to judge.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithblack@gmail.com href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith
Black</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 14, 2007 8:00</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Since no one else will stick out their neck, I
will. Mark is 100% correct. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The problem has nothing to do with class,
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>intelligence or ability, just experience. Not
all, but most, intermediate pilots are simply so new to pattern that they
don't know everything to look for. This is why in most cases FAI judges give
out lower scores than intermediate judges. Not because FAI judges are meaner
or more conceited, but because they notice more. One could argue that it
doesn't matter as long as scores are consistent, but this just isn't the
case. When judges notice fewer things, like Mark's example of the snap
below, scores begin to rise and it's more difficult for pilots to distinguish
themselves. For example, pilot A and B both fly the 45 degree down snap
centering and stopping it perfectly, but pilot A didn't match the entry and
exit radius (very easy to miss for pilot and judge). If a judge does not
notice this then pilot B is penalized and though he performed better on paper
he wasn't able to distinguish himself. As a contestant this can be extremely
frustrating. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Frankly, there's so much going on in our flights
that it's pretty much impossible to catch every altitude difference, centering
difference, radius difference, wind correction, etc. To expect they guy
that's just moved from Sportsman to do so is really unreasonable.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So, am I against Intermediate or Sportsman judges
at local contests? No, they need the experience and judging
can teach a pilot so much! It's well worth the occasional round that
may not be spot on in judging to get these guys experience because in a few
years THEY will be writing this email. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If your an Intermediate or Sportsman pilot that's
competed in fewer than about 15 to 20 contests and this pisses you
off all I can say what every parent tells their kids, in a few years
you'll understand, there's really nothing to argue about. And though it seems
so, I'm not trying to be condescending.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=atwoodm@paragon-inc.com href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">Mark
Atwood</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:49
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">Again, I simply have to agree to disagree.
Don’t really want a battle over it. My suggestion would be to
talk to someone that judges ice skating or as I mentioned before, diving.
An inexperienced judge, even knowing all the rules and downgrades, can
do little more than judge the landing. And that’s what we
get...Downward 45 snaps that are judged 99% on the exit of the snap with
little attention to the centering, entry and exit radius, etc.
But maybe more to the point, I know at least MY experience
has been, if I’m flying in high wind in front of a masters pilot, I pay a
LOT of attention to proper wind correction, knowing that even though the
maneuver looks wrong, it’s not, and will be judged appropriately because
that person can fly that same correction, and knows what it has to look
like. If I have an inexperienced judge...I focus on “smooth”, with
less wind correction, worrying less about proper ‘Track’ 45’s than proper
attitude 45s..etc. I think you’ll find a lot of flyers do the
same. Is it right?? Don’t know...but it’s certainly the
reality.<BR><BR>I know I’m disparaging the intermediate judge...I don’t mean
to do that. Some are extremely good. It’s not the class you fly
as much as total experience and exposure. Dave Klein (father to Mike
Klein, former TOC pilot) never flew above the old Sportsman routine, but did
so for MANY years, and also watched Mike fly about 10,000 practice flights
of FAI and TOC patterns. He knew what he was looking for.
I’m sure there are intermediate flyers out there with equal
skills in the chair.<BR><BR>Judging schools are GREAT...a tremendous help.
Even the poorest ones add value. AND...yes, there are 15 year
master’s pilots who are probably bad judges. But on any
given day, the odds are that the experienced pilot is going to be a better
judge than an inexperienced pilot. Again...My opinion.<BR><BR>So
it goes back to Ron’s comment...that the CD’s job is to identify which of
the various pilots are “qualified”...<BR><BR>-M<BR><BR><BR>On 6/14/07 1:01
PM, "Fred Huber" <fhhuber@clearwire.net> wrote:<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">there's a big difference in PLAYING a game of
strategy and OBSERVING the RESULTS of someone performing
aerobatics.<BR> <BR>You don't even need to know all the rules to
observe.<BR> <BR>You don't need to know the weight limit, maximum
length or wingspan of the model.<BR> <BR>You don't have to know how
to compensate for wind in order to be able to see if a vertical line got
blown sideways and should be downgraded.<BR> <BR>Knowing the names of
the pieces (maneuvers) and the shape of the board (limits of the box) and
the basic movements of the pieces (textbook description of loop, roll,
spin, snap...) will get you MUCH further judging than actually
playing.<BR> <BR>Even a judge at a chess tournament only needs to
know how to recognize an illegal move. They don't have to be able to
beat the worst player in the High School chess club.<BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B> Mark Atwood <A
href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com"><mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:44
AM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration<BR> <BR><BR>I’m going to simply agree to
disagree. Experience in flying, helps your experience in
judging, IMHO.<BR><BR>I’ll use a few analogies...
Chess. I know the rules. I’m even a
decent player. My son is 10...also knows the rules, and for
10, plays ok. But when he looks at the board, he sees 64
squares and a myriad of pieces. He has to evaluate each
piece in turn, taking considerable time to make his move. By
contrast, my experience allows me to set “groups” of pieces as a
single formation...a master player, sees the entire board as a
single position, and knows instantly the next move to
make.<BR><BR>One more quick comparison and I’ll try and related it to
pattern judging...lol<BR><BR>Diving. How many of you have
watched the olympic diving and seen someone do a blinding 3
somersault half twist whatever, only to have the announcer
say...”He’s going to have to do a better job of keeping his knees
together and holding the tuck farther in the rotation...blah blah
blah” and think to yourself HUH?? Did they actually SEE that??
And sure enough, in the slow mo...that’s EXACTLY what happened.
The commentator DIDN’T see it...but they knew from the
outcome WHAT MUST HAVE OCCURRED TO GET THERE from their own
experience.<BR><BR>Back to flying. Much of what we do is
anticipate problems and fix them. Some may disagree,
but often, judging is know what must have happened to get you into
the bad place. That takes experience...I think flying experience,
though I suppose significant judging experience could achieve the
same. Bottom line...a sportsman/intermediate pilot, unless
they’ve been flying and judging that class for many years, doesn’t
have the experience necessary to judge FAI or Masters Real Time.
You have to see too much, too fast. You can’t evaluate
all the pieces on the board...you have to see the board as a
single position.<BR><BR>My .02 cents.<BR><BR>That being said...I
fully agree that Intermediate pilots should be used to judge
Advanced...mixed with Masters pilots...thats the best way to learn
and you’ll still get a good judging
result.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 6/14/07 10:57 AM, "Zapata, Lisandro
Arturo" <Lisandro.Zapata@rsandh.com>
wrote:<BR><BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>IMHO<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>Even a Sportman who barely know to fly their own sequences,
doesn't mean that can't judge even FAI pilots. If he has the
knowledge and the ability to judge correctly then you should use
him to judge FAI. Is common to think that a FAI pilot who has to
know to fly with all the rules in his mind must be a great judge
but is not always the case, they can be a terrible judge and a
great flyer.<BR>I had seen FAI judges that they aren't even
pilots, but they know the rules.<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>Arturo<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Ron Van Putte<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June
14, 2007 10:34 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration<BR></FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>My
comments regarding not all Intermediate class pilots being
qualified to judge Advanced is from experience. A lot of
Intermediate class pilots just moved up from Sportsman and
barely know how to fly their own sequences, much less judge a
class above them. They don't have the basic knowledge of
how to judge correctly. I've had Intermediate pilots ask
to be assigned to any other job than being a judge of Advanced
pilots because they didn't feel qualified. <BR><BR>Further, like
all programs, our judging certification program often leaves a
lot to be desired. Despite the efforts of a lot of people
like Don Ramsey, how many pilots just got certified by sitting in
a group with a lot of other guys who all took the "test"
together? I've seen it happen far too often.
Judge certification classes run by Don Ramsey at the
Nats take several hours. I've watched some local classes
take less than an hour and most of that was taking the test.
For experienced judges, just taking the test is probably enough,
because they have familiarized themselves with changes to the
rules and only need to take the test. However, I believe
that pilots who are inexperienced judges are being shortchanged
at the local level.<BR><BR>Ron Van Putte<BR><BR><BR>On Jun 14,
2007, at 8:12 AM, John Ferrell
wrote:<BR><BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial>I find
the lack of confidence in the Judging Certification
Program to be an insult to those who put forth so much effort
into it.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>There are still a lot of Masters/FAI pilots who
choose to not waste their time knowing the AMA rule
book. And there are many pilots who are new to the
Pattern Discipline that have read and continue to read
the Rule book like the Bible!<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>The class one flies is not a good indicator of
their judging qualities.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"Life is
easier if you learn to plow
<BR> around the
stumps"<BR><A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B> Ron Van Putte <A
href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net"><mailto:vanputte@cox.net></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 13, 2007
7:44 PM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration<BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR>It is true
that SOME Intermediate pilots are qualified to judge
Advanced and are used if they are. The event
director's job is to discover who is qualified.
That's why we pay him the big $.
<VBG> <BR><BR> <BR>Ron Van
Putte<BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR>On Jun 13, 2007,
at 5:51 PM, Derek Koopowitz
wrote:<BR><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Provided that the Intermediate
pilots aren't qualified to judge Advanced, right?
And since there are 20 Intermediate pilots
they can help out with judging Advanced as well -
since everyone has to be
certified.<BR><BR> <BR>On 6/13/07, <B>Ron Van
Putte</B> <vanputte@cox.net> wrote:
<BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>As a former Nats event
director, I must point out that the Master class
pilots are used to judge the Advanced AND F3A
pilots, thus the problem with the number of Master
class pilots. If you use three judges on
both Advanced lines, that's six judges each session.
Then, if there are four F3A lines, that's
another twelve judges. So, the first two sessions
of Advanced and F3A requires 36 Master class
judges. Oh oh! we run out of Master
class judges on the third day if we only have 40
Master class pilots and nobody volunteers to judge
extra sessions. That's why Dave Guerin's
hair is turning gray/falling out.
<BR><BR> <BR> <BR>Ron Van
Putte<BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR>On
Jun 13, 2007, at 5:26 PM, Derek Koopowitz
wrote:<BR><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>And for
one year there will actually be enough judges to judge Masters -
we've always struggled with not having enough F3A pilots to fill
the Masters judging pool.<BR> <BR><BR><BR> <BR> <BR>On
6/13/07, <B>Jim Woodward</B>
<Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com <A
href="mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com"><mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com></A>
> wrote:
<BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR></FONT></SPAN><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Wow – Awesome! The Masters pilots
will get a taste of judging a highly attended FAI class! J
J J <BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Jim
W.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
<P align=center><FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR> <BR>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"></SPAN></FONT>
<P><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org></A>
] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Derek
Koopowitz<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 13, 2007
12:41 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List;
dist7@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration <BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">It looks
like we have 115 total registered pilots for the Nats this year
(from the AMA website)...<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Intermediate -
20<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Advanced -
16<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Masters -
40<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">FAI -
39<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Those are
excellent #'s and I'm hoping that there will still be some late
entries that will raise those numbers even
more.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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<BLOCKQUOTE>
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Release Date: 6/14/2007 12:44 PM<BR></SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT
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