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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Since no one else will stick out their neck, I
will. Mark is 100% correct. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The problem has nothing to do with class,
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>intelligence or ability, just experience. Not
all, but most, intermediate pilots are simply so new to pattern that they don't
know everything to look for. This is why in most cases FAI judges give out lower
scores than intermediate judges. Not because FAI judges are meaner or more
conceited, but because they notice more. One could argue that it doesn't matter
as long as scores are consistent, but this just isn't the case. When judges
notice fewer things, like Mark's example of the snap below, scores begin to rise
and it's more difficult for pilots to distinguish themselves. For example, pilot
A and B both fly the 45 degree down snap centering and stopping it perfectly,
but pilot A didn't match the entry and exit radius (very easy to miss for pilot
and judge). If a judge does not notice this then pilot B is penalized and though
he performed better on paper he wasn't able to distinguish himself. As a
contestant this can be extremely frustrating. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Frankly, there's so much going on in our flights
that it's pretty much impossible to catch every altitude difference, centering
difference, radius difference, wind correction, etc. To expect they guy
that's just moved from Sportsman to do so is really unreasonable.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So, am I against Intermediate or Sportsman judges
at local contests? No, they need the experience and judging
can teach a pilot so much! It's well worth the occasional round that
may not be spot on in judging to get these guys experience because in a few
years THEY will be writing this email. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If your an Intermediate or Sportsman pilot that's
competed in fewer than about 15 to 20 contests and this pisses you off all
I can say what every parent tells their kids, in a few years you'll understand,
there's really nothing to argue about. And though it seems so, I'm not trying to
be condescending.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=atwoodm@paragon-inc.com href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">Mark
Atwood</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:49
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">Again, I simply have to agree to disagree. Don’t
really want a battle over it. My suggestion would be to talk to someone
that judges ice skating or as I mentioned before, diving. An
inexperienced judge, even knowing all the rules and downgrades, can do little
more than judge the landing. And that’s what we get...Downward 45 snaps
that are judged 99% on the exit of the snap with little attention to the
centering, entry and exit radius, etc. But maybe more to the
point, I know at least MY experience has been, if I’m flying in high wind in
front of a masters pilot, I pay a LOT of attention to proper wind correction,
knowing that even though the maneuver looks wrong, it’s not, and will be
judged appropriately because that person can fly that same correction, and
knows what it has to look like. If I have an inexperienced judge...I
focus on “smooth”, with less wind correction, worrying less about proper
‘Track’ 45’s than proper attitude 45s..etc. I think you’ll find a
lot of flyers do the same. Is it right?? Don’t know...but it’s
certainly the reality.<BR><BR>I know I’m disparaging the intermediate
judge...I don’t mean to do that. Some are extremely good. It’s not
the class you fly as much as total experience and exposure. Dave Klein
(father to Mike Klein, former TOC pilot) never flew above the old Sportsman
routine, but did so for MANY years, and also watched Mike fly about 10,000
practice flights of FAI and TOC patterns. He knew what he was looking
for. I’m sure there are intermediate flyers out there with equal
skills in the chair.<BR><BR>Judging schools are GREAT...a tremendous help.
Even the poorest ones add value. AND...yes, there are 15 year
master’s pilots who are probably bad judges. But on any
given day, the odds are that the experienced pilot is going to be a better
judge than an inexperienced pilot. Again...My opinion.<BR><BR>So
it goes back to Ron’s comment...that the CD’s job is to identify which of the
various pilots are “qualified”...<BR><BR>-M<BR><BR><BR>On 6/14/07 1:01 PM,
"Fred Huber" <fhhuber@clearwire.net> wrote:<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">there's a big difference in PLAYING a game of
strategy and OBSERVING the RESULTS of someone performing
aerobatics.<BR> <BR>You don't even need to know all the rules to
observe.<BR> <BR>You don't need to know the weight limit, maximum
length or wingspan of the model.<BR> <BR>You don't have to know how to
compensate for wind in order to be able to see if a vertical line got blown
sideways and should be downgraded.<BR> <BR>Knowing the names of the
pieces (maneuvers) and the shape of the board (limits of the box) and the
basic movements of the pieces (textbook description of loop, roll, spin,
snap...) will get you MUCH further judging than actually
playing.<BR> <BR>Even a judge at a chess tournament only needs to know
how to recognize an illegal move. They don't have to be able to beat
the worst player in the High School chess club.<BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B> Mark Atwood <A
href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com"><mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:44
AM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration<BR> <BR><BR>I’m going to simply agree to disagree.
Experience in flying, helps your experience in judging,
IMHO.<BR><BR>I’ll use a few analogies... Chess.
I know the rules. I’m even a decent player. My son
is 10...also knows the rules, and for 10, plays ok. But when
he looks at the board, he sees 64 squares and a myriad of pieces.
He has to evaluate each piece in turn, taking considerable
time to make his move. By contrast, my experience allows me to
set “groups” of pieces as a single formation...a master player, sees
the entire board as a single position, and knows instantly the next move
to make.<BR><BR>One more quick comparison and I’ll try and related
it to pattern judging...lol<BR><BR>Diving. How many of you
have watched the olympic diving and seen someone do a blinding 3
somersault half twist whatever, only to have the announcer
say...”He’s going to have to do a better job of keeping his knees
together and holding the tuck farther in the rotation...blah blah
blah” and think to yourself HUH?? Did they actually SEE that??
And sure enough, in the slow mo...that’s EXACTLY what happened.
The commentator DIDN’T see it...but they knew from the outcome
WHAT MUST HAVE OCCURRED TO GET THERE from their own
experience.<BR><BR>Back to flying. Much of what we do is
anticipate problems and fix them. Some may disagree, but
often, judging is know what must have happened to get you into the
bad place. That takes experience...I think flying experience,
though I suppose significant judging experience could achieve the
same. Bottom line...a sportsman/intermediate pilot, unless
they’ve been flying and judging that class for many years, doesn’t
have the experience necessary to judge FAI or Masters Real Time.
You have to see too much, too fast. You can’t evaluate
all the pieces on the board...you have to see the board as a single
position.<BR><BR>My .02 cents.<BR><BR>That being said...I fully
agree that Intermediate pilots should be used to judge Advanced...mixed
with Masters pilots...thats the best way to learn and you’ll still
get a good judging result.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 6/14/07 10:57
AM, "Zapata, Lisandro Arturo" <Lisandro.Zapata@rsandh.com>
wrote:<BR><BR> <BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>IMHO<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>Even a Sportman who barely know to fly their own sequences,
doesn't mean that can't judge even FAI pilots. If he has the
knowledge and the ability to judge correctly then you should use
him to judge FAI. Is common to think that a FAI pilot who has to
know to fly with all the rules in his mind must be a great judge
but is not always the case, they can be a terrible judge and a
great flyer.<BR>I had seen FAI judges that they aren't even
pilots, but they know the rules.<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>Arturo<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Ron Van Putte<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June
14, 2007 10:34 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration<BR></FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>My
comments regarding not all Intermediate class pilots being
qualified to judge Advanced is from experience. A lot of
Intermediate class pilots just moved up from Sportsman and barely
know how to fly their own sequences, much less judge a class above
them. They don't have the basic knowledge of how to judge
correctly. I've had Intermediate pilots ask to be assigned
to any other job than being a judge of Advanced pilots because
they didn't feel qualified. <BR><BR>Further, like all programs,
our judging certification program often leaves a lot to be
desired. Despite the efforts of a lot of people like Don
Ramsey, how many pilots just got certified by sitting in a group
with a lot of other guys who all took the "test" together?
I've seen it happen far too often. Judge
certification classes run by Don Ramsey at the Nats take several
hours. I've watched some local classes take less than an
hour and most of that was taking the test. For experienced
judges, just taking the test is probably enough, because they have
familiarized themselves with changes to the rules and only need to
take the test. However, I believe that pilots who are
inexperienced judges are being shortchanged at the local
level.<BR><BR>Ron Van Putte<BR><BR><BR>On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:12
AM, John Ferrell wrote:<BR><BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial>I find
the lack of confidence in the Judging Certification
Program to be an insult to those who put forth so much effort
into it.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>There are still a lot of Masters/FAI pilots who
choose to not waste their time knowing the AMA rule book.
And there are many pilots who are new to the Pattern
Discipline that have read and continue to read the Rule
book like the Bible!<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>The class one flies is not a good indicator of their
judging qualities.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"Life is
easier if you learn to plow
<BR> around the
stumps"<BR><A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B> Ron Van Putte <A
href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net"><mailto:vanputte@cox.net></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:44
PM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Nats registration<BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR>It is
true that SOME Intermediate pilots are qualified to
judge Advanced and are used if they are. The event
director's job is to discover who is qualified.
That's why we pay him the big $. <VBG>
<BR><BR> <BR>Ron Van
Putte<BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR>On Jun 13, 2007, at
5:51 PM, Derek Koopowitz
wrote:<BR><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Provided that the Intermediate
pilots aren't qualified to judge Advanced, right?
And since there are 20 Intermediate pilots they
can help out with judging Advanced as well - since
everyone has to be certified.<BR><BR> <BR>On 6/13/07,
<B>Ron Van Putte</B> <vanputte@cox.net>
wrote: <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>As a former Nats event
director, I must point out that the Master class
pilots are used to judge the Advanced AND F3A
pilots, thus the problem with the number of Master
class pilots. If you use three judges on both
Advanced lines, that's six judges each session.
Then, if there are four F3A lines, that's
another twelve judges. So, the first two sessions of
Advanced and F3A requires 36 Master class judges.
Oh oh! we run out of Master class judges
on the third day if we only have 40 Master class
pilots and nobody volunteers to judge extra sessions.
That's why Dave Guerin's hair is turning
gray/falling out. <BR><BR> <BR> <BR>Ron
Van
Putte<BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR>On
Jun 13, 2007, at 5:26 PM, Derek Koopowitz
wrote:<BR><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>And for one
year there will actually be enough judges to judge Masters - we've
always struggled with not having enough F3A pilots to fill the
Masters judging pool.<BR> <BR><BR><BR> <BR> <BR>On
6/13/07, <B>Jim Woodward</B>
<Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com <A
href="mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com"><mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com></A>
> wrote:
<BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR></FONT></SPAN><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Wow – Awesome! The Masters pilots
will get a taste of judging a highly attended FAI class! J
J J <BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Jim
W.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
<P align=center><FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR> <BR>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"></SPAN></FONT>
<P><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org></A>
] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Derek Koopowitz<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Wednesday, June 13, 2007 12:41 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List; dist7@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration <BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">It looks
like we have 115 total registered pilots for the Nats this year
(from the AMA website)...<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Intermediate
- 20<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Advanced -
16<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Masters -
40<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=5><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">FAI -
39<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Those are
excellent #'s and I'm hoping that there will still be some late
entries that will raise those numbers even
more.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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