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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Once again I'm in agreement. I remember once
being asked to judge Master's when I was flying Intermediate and asked to be
excused as I didn't feel qualified to do a fair job, but once I started flying
the Master's sequence and the FAI sequences I quickly became aware of the
details in the execution required. Of course we're all aware that knowing and
doing are two different things. The fact that I think I know these details
doesn't mean that I therefore am an instant expert. In fact, if you saw me fly
these sequences you'd say, "Who's this bum?" But I have the knowledge, and
that enables me to assume an analytical mindset regarding the efforts of another
attempting perfection. I think that mindset thing is the crucial element. I've
seen some Master's flyers that, to me, don't appear to have attained this
analytical attitude yet, and are required to sit in the chair at the detriment
of the performer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>There seem to be some that NEVER develop the degree
of criticality required to scrutinize down to the minutia needed, no matter
how long they're in the sport and these become the also-runs in the
over all scheme of things.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Does this mean that they should take up golf?
On the contrary. Their enjoyment of the sport should not be tied to a strict set
of standards that would require an alteration of their personality. We all delve
into this stuff to different depths and have every reason to enjoy the
comaraderie of others who may be less fanatical and treat them with the respect
that we would like ourselves. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't, however, feel that it's possible to attain
very high ranking status without also posessing these judging traits. To fly at
the highest levels you have to know this stuff down to the smallest jot and
tittle</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So my conclusion is that everybody approaches this
stuff with different goals and aspirations, the end result being that
the good flyer may not be the best judge and vice-versa and that will
probably always be so.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hopefully, without biases, it all averages
out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Georgie</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=atwoodm@paragon-inc.com href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">Mark
Atwood</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:44
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">I’m going to simply agree to disagree.
Experience in flying, helps your experience in judging,
IMHO.<BR><BR>I’ll use a few analogies... Chess. I know
the rules. I’m even a decent player. My son is 10...also knows the
rules, and for 10, plays ok. But when he looks at the board, he sees 64
squares and a myriad of pieces. He has to evaluate each piece in turn,
taking considerable time to make his move. By contrast, my experience
allows me to set “groups” of pieces as a single formation...a master player,
sees the entire board as a single position, and knows instantly the next move
to make.<BR><BR>One more quick comparison and I’ll try and related it to
pattern judging...lol<BR><BR>Diving. How many of you have watched the
olympic diving and seen someone do a blinding 3 somersault half twist
whatever, only to have the announcer say...”He’s going to have to do a better
job of keeping his knees together and holding the tuck farther in the
rotation...blah blah blah” and think to yourself HUH?? Did they actually SEE
that?? And sure enough, in the slow mo...that’s EXACTLY what happened.
The commentator DIDN’T see it...but they knew from the outcome WHAT MUST
HAVE OCCURRED TO GET THERE from their own experience.<BR><BR>Back to flying.
Much of what we do is anticipate problems and fix them. Some
may disagree, but often, judging is know what must have happened to get you
into the bad place. That takes experience...I think flying experience,
though I suppose significant judging experience could achieve the same.
Bottom line...a sportsman/intermediate pilot, unless they’ve been flying
and judging that class for many years, doesn’t have the experience necessary
to judge FAI or Masters Real Time. You have to see too much, too fast.
You can’t evaluate all the pieces on the board...you have to see the
board as a single position.<BR><BR>My .02 cents.<BR><BR>That being said...I
fully agree that Intermediate pilots should be used to judge Advanced...mixed
with Masters pilots...thats the best way to learn and you’ll still get a good
judging result.<BR><BR>-Mark<BR><BR><BR>On 6/14/07 10:57 AM, "Zapata, Lisandro
Arturo" <Lisandro.Zapata@rsandh.com> wrote:<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>IMHO<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>Even a Sportman who barely know to fly their own sequences,
doesn't mean that can't judge even FAI pilots. If he has the knowledge and
the ability to judge correctly then you should use him to judge FAI. Is
common to think that a FAI pilot who has to know to fly with all the rules
in his mind must be a great judge but is not always the case, they can be a
terrible judge and a great flyer.<BR>I had seen FAI judges that they aren't
even pilots, but they know the rules.<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
face=Arial>Arturo<BR></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Ron Van Putte<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, June 14, 2007
10:34 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Nats registration<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>My comments regarding not all
Intermediate class pilots being qualified to judge Advanced is from
experience. A lot of Intermediate class pilots just moved up from
Sportsman and barely know how to fly their own sequences, much less judge a
class above them. They don't have the basic knowledge of how to judge
correctly. I've had Intermediate pilots ask to be assigned to any
other job than being a judge of Advanced pilots because they didn't feel
qualified. <BR><BR>Further, like all programs, our judging certification
program often leaves a lot to be desired. Despite the efforts of a lot
of people like Don Ramsey, how many pilots just got certified by sitting in
a group with a lot of other guys who all took the "test" together?
I've seen it happen far too often. Judge certification
classes run by Don Ramsey at the Nats take several hours. I've watched
some local classes take less than an hour and most of that was taking the
test. For experienced judges, just taking the test is probably enough,
because they have familiarized themselves with changes to the rules and only
need to take the test. However, I believe that pilots who are
inexperienced judges are being shortchanged at the local level.<BR><BR>Ron
Van Putte<BR><BR><BR>On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:12 AM, John Ferrell
wrote:<BR><BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial>I find the
lack of confidence in the Judging Certification Program to be an
insult to those who put forth so much effort into
it.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>There are still a lot of Masters/FAI pilots who choose to
not waste their time knowing the AMA rule book. And there are many
pilots who are new to the Pattern Discipline that have read and
continue to read the Rule book like the Bible!<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>The class one flies is not a good indicator of their
judging qualities.<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Arial>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"Life is easier
if you learn to plow <BR> around
the stumps"<BR><A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B> Ron Van Putte <A
href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net"><mailto:vanputte@cox.net></A>
<BR> <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A>
<BR> <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:44
PM<BR> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration<BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR>It is true that SOME
Intermediate pilots are qualified to judge Advanced and are used
if they are. The event director's job is to discover who is
qualified. That's why we pay him the big $.
<VBG> <BR><BR> <BR>Ron Van
Putte<BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR>On Jun 13, 2007, at 5:51 PM,
Derek Koopowitz wrote:<BR><BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">Provided that the Intermediate pilots
aren't qualified to judge Advanced, right? And since there
are 20 Intermediate pilots they can help out with judging
Advanced as well - since everyone has to be
certified.<BR><BR> <BR>On 6/13/07, <B>Ron Van Putte</B>
<vanputte@cox.net> wrote: <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>As a former Nats event
director, I must point out that the Master class pilots are
used to judge the Advanced AND F3A pilots, thus the problem
with the number of Master class pilots. If you use three
judges on both Advanced lines, that's six judges each session.
Then, if there are four F3A lines, that's another twelve
judges. So, the first two sessions of Advanced and F3A
requires 36 Master class judges. Oh oh! we run out
of Master class judges on the third day if we only have 40
Master class pilots and nobody volunteers to judge extra
sessions. That's why Dave Guerin's hair is turning
gray/falling out. <BR><BR> <BR> <BR>Ron Van
Putte<BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR>On Jun 13,
2007, at 5:26 PM, Derek Koopowitz
wrote:<BR><BR> <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>And for one year there will
actually be enough judges to judge Masters - we've always
struggled with not having enough F3A pilots to fill the
Masters judging pool.<BR> <BR><BR><BR> <BR> <BR>On
6/13/07, <B>Jim Woodward</B>
<Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com <A
href="mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com"><mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com></A>
> wrote: <BR></FONT></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR> <BR> <BR><BR></FONT></SPAN><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Wow – Awesome!
The Masters pilots will get a taste of judging a
highly attended FAI class! J J J
<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px">Jim
W.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
<P align=center><FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"><BR>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org></A>
] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Derek
Koopowitz<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 13, 2007
12:41 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List;
dist7@nsrca.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Nats
registration <BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">It looks like we have 115 total
registered pilots for the Nats this year (from the AMA
website)...<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Intermediate -
20<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Advanced -
16<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Masters -
40<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">FAI - 39<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT
size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px">Those are excellent #'s and I'm hoping
that there will still be some late entries that will raise
those numbers even more.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR> <BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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