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<DIV><FONT size=2>With judges directly behind the pilot...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the poles are ate the 175 meter out limit line, then any
time the plane appears beyond the pole, its definitively out of the box.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the pole is closer in, then any time a plane closer in than
the pole appears to pass the pole, it has broken the box, regardless of how far
behind the pilot the judge is located. Planes further out than the pole
might appear to the judges to have passed the pole without having broken the
box.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The only time the box size and pole location appear the
same to the judge (behind the pilot) is when the plane's flight line crosses
directly over the poles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Judges' error in apparant box limit by use of the poles when
the poles are at the limit 175 meter line will be small (a wingspan or two
maximum if the judge is less than 30 ft behind the pilot) and will give the
close-in-flying pilot EXTRA room.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the poles are at 150 meters and the pilot is flying at 175
meters... the poles being used as the judges' box limit reference will give an
average error of appx a 2-meter pane's wingspan...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Judges' error in apparant box limit by use of poles at 1/2 the
distance to the average line of flight can be severe, and unfairly would
penalize the pilot. The closer in the poles are relative to the line of
flight... the larger the box size error the judge will have if using the
poles as a reference.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Thus Judges should never use poles as the reference if they
are not out on the 150 meter to 175 meter flight line... unless the pilot is
flying a line directly over the poles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Poles are only a judges' reference if they are properly
located.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>******************</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you paint the reference lines and place the poles relative
to the judge's position... then the pilot can't use them, and the pilot needs
the references more than the judges.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wgalligan@goodsonacura.com
href="mailto:wgalligan@goodsonacura.com">wgalligan</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 16, 2007 3:29
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Georgie,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The closer you fly in the greater the difference
of perception. The pole is part of the box. So if the
contestant was right on the pole you would downgrade? And if you
are viewing from the judges chair and the pilot was on the pole from your
perspective they would definitely be inside the box.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Perhaps the 60 degree line should run from the
judges line of view and then there would be no question where the BOX
is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>WG</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 16, 2007 2:49
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lance,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The only time this becomes an issue is when the
pilot is flying beyond the 150 meter distance. AT the 150 distance there is
correspondance, inside of that distance, if the pilot touches the pole, he
has violated the box.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You need to draw this out to scale on a good
sized sheet of paper and it will become apparent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@tx.rr.com href="mailto:patterndude@tx.rr.com">Lance
Van Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 15, 2007 8:52
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tony,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't agree that the view of the pilot and
judge are the same. I have a habit, taught to me by senior judges in
d6 long ago, that I do when judging. Before sitting down I stand in
the pilot station and look at the poles( best) or a landmark on the box
lines. then I sit and look again. I think it is amazing how
even a 10 ft judge setback can change the perception of the box
line. I know a lot of pilots that like to stretch the box and scrape
the edges on turnarounds so its important to recognize even small parallax
issues.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BTW Matt, there were 2 judging seminars in
D6. One in Temple and one in Albuquerque. So many choices, it can be
hard to choose.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:45
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you, Tony. My point exactly. I'm glad
someone else realized that I was not asking for help on how to avoid
breaking the box, but just trying to bring up a potential problem with
box size judging based on simple geometry. Even though seminars are
making judging more uniform, there are still people like me who just
flat-out can't make a 10-hour drive to a contest just so they can attend
a seminar. The website is helpful; but open, ongoing discussion on these
topics will keep them fresh in our minds.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tony@radiosouthrc.com
href="mailto:tony@radiosouthrc.com">Tony Stillman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing
List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 14, 2007 8:44
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt:<BR>This
is something I have spoken about several times. The poles are
there for the JUDGES. The lines are for the PILOTS. If the
poles cannot be place on their proper location, THEY SHOULD NOT BE
USED! This if because of the very thing that you are talking
about. If the poles are at the 150 meter out location, the
difference between the view of the pilot and the judges, even if they
are 25 feet behind the pilot, are virtually the same. The closer
you bring in the poles, but more of an error you will create.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Tony Stillman,
President<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Radio
South<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">3702 N. Pace
Blvd</SPAN></FONT></st1:address></st1:Street><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Pensacola</SPAN></FONT></st1:City><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">, <st1:State
w:st="on">FL</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">32505</st1:PostalCode></SPAN></FONT></st1:place><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">1-800-962-7802<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">www.radiosouthrc.com<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Matthew
Frederick<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:29 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box
Definition</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">OK, this forum has been
too quiet lately, so let's get some controversy going! This
comment/question is mainly directed to Don Ramsey, but I would
appreciate everyone's opinion. The good thing is, Don was at the
contest where what I'm about to describe happened. What I'm talking
about here is the positioning of judges behind the pilot. Under most
circumstances the judges are positioned maybe 3-5 feet behind the
pilot with each judge's seat placed on (or very close to) one of
the 60-degree lines. Now, at a contest I attended last week the judges
apparently decided it was too hot out there on the actual flight line,
and they moved their chairs about 15-20 feet behind the pilot in the
shade of the shed at this particular field. My question is, should
this be something that is allowed since the judges' chairs define the
zero line of the flight line (and moving it back this far puts
spectators in danger), and also because it gives the judges an even
more skewed view of the 60-degree lines than they already have? I
bring this up partly because of what Don wrote in this month's
K-Factor, but also because I was gigged for busting the box by these
"displaced" (in Louisiana we call them refugees) judges when in
fact, I knew I was close to the edge, but since I was actually
standing on the line, I knew I didn't bust it. As a pilot I should not
have to adjust the size of the box that I'm permitted to fly in just
so the judges can be more comfortable (granted, comfort in the heat
and humidity of <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Louisiana</st1:place></st1:State> is relative). I didn't
bring it up at the contest because by the time it bit me, it was too
late to complain. In the future, however, I think there need to be
rules regarding the positioning of judges if there aren't already, and
if there are rules, let's bring them to light and enforce them, and
you can bet I'll refuse to fly before judges that are that far behind
me. Then again, I also think the close edge of the runway should be
the zero line on maneuvers, not the judges' chairs. I did a little
(ok, a lot) of math to figure out how much box a pilot would
be missing out on with the judges postitioned 15 feet behind him.
Using approximated numbers from the contest in question I calculated
that if the poles are 40 feet out from the pilot, and the judges are
15 feet behind the pilot, the box size at 150 meters (which is
259.81m) based on the judges' point of view is reduced by 232.61
feet (70.9 m), or 25.2%! This would have been even greater if the
poles were closer in or the judges were further
back.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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