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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Right on Matt!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A large and growing group of us know that the only
way to actually improve judging, make it more consistent from judge to judge,
and discover erroneous thinking is, as my 8th grader learned recently, the
Socratic seminar (i.e. discuss real life events as a way to come to group
concensus - for those of us that slept through 8th grade). A little
transparency in the process is important. There are many ways, some better
than others. Faux judging, or sitting with a friend and pointing out the
downgrades and what score you would assign is one of the best. Learning
goes both ways. Judges are often wrong. There are many variables. A
judge that is good on lines and geometry may forget to match radiuses or roll
rates, or any other combination. Howver, these errors are inevitable as we
are human. However, when someone is using unwritten rules, or is over/under
downgrading, or showing bias then we have a problem and discussion is one way
out. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As I've always maintained, its nice to know that
you scored a 7.5 but sometimes until someone tells you why you can't
improve. This is especially true when you watch another guy fly and you
think "how did that flight beat mine?". Without something to go on many of
us can get frustrated and lose interest.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 15, 2007 11:53
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, Lance, so many choices, each one further
away than the last. I don't understand why it's so hard for people to accept
that a judge could have been wrong? Same contest in question the judges one
round decided to discuss whether or not a maneuver performed by someone else
(not me) was a zero or not. The more experienced judge convinced the other to
change his score to a zero. Luckily my friend protested, and he was awarded
the original score given by the judge. The only way to maintain the integrity
of our contestant judging system is to have ongoing discussions about judging
issues, not just assume that a seminar and a test can cure all our woes. It
would seem our drive to achieve perfection in our flying would also make us
strive to achieve perfection in our judging.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@tx.rr.com href="mailto:patterndude@tx.rr.com">Lance Van
Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 15, 2007 7:52
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tony,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't agree that the view of the pilot and
judge are the same. I have a habit, taught to me by senior judges in
d6 long ago, that I do when judging. Before sitting down I stand in
the pilot station and look at the poles( best) or a landmark on the box
lines. then I sit and look again. I think it is amazing how even
a 10 ft judge setback can change the perception of the box line. I
know a lot of pilots that like to stretch the box and scrape the edges on
turnarounds so its important to recognize even small parallax
issues.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BTW Matt, there were 2 judging seminars in D6.
One in Temple and one in Albuquerque. So many choices, it can be hard
to choose.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:45
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you, Tony. My point exactly. I'm glad
someone else realized that I was not asking for help on how to avoid
breaking the box, but just trying to bring up a potential problem with box
size judging based on simple geometry. Even though seminars are making
judging more uniform, there are still people like me who just flat-out
can't make a 10-hour drive to a contest just so they can attend a seminar.
The website is helpful; but open, ongoing discussion on these topics will
keep them fresh in our minds.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tony@radiosouthrc.com href="mailto:tony@radiosouthrc.com">Tony
Stillman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 14, 2007 8:44
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt:<BR>This
is something I have spoken about several times. The poles are
there for the JUDGES. The lines are for the PILOTS. If the
poles cannot be place on their proper location, THEY SHOULD NOT BE
USED! This if because of the very thing that you are talking
about. If the poles are at the 150 meter out location, the
difference between the view of the pilot and the judges, even if they
are 25 feet behind the pilot, are virtually the same. The closer
you bring in the poles, but more of an error you will create.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Tony Stillman,
President<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Radio
South<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">3702 N. Pace
Blvd</SPAN></FONT></st1:address></st1:Street><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Pensacola</SPAN></FONT></st1:City><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">, <st1:State
w:st="on">FL</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">32505</st1:PostalCode></SPAN></FONT></st1:place><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">1-800-962-7802<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">www.radiosouthrc.com<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Matthew
Frederick<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:29 PM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box
Definition</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">OK, this forum has been too
quiet lately, so let's get some controversy going! This comment/question
is mainly directed to Don Ramsey, but I would appreciate everyone's
opinion. The good thing is, Don was at the contest where what I'm about
to describe happened. What I'm talking about here is the positioning of
judges behind the pilot. Under most circumstances the judges are
positioned maybe 3-5 feet behind the pilot with each judge's seat placed
on (or very close to) one of the 60-degree lines. Now, at a contest
I attended last week the judges apparently decided it was too hot out
there on the actual flight line, and they moved their chairs about 15-20
feet behind the pilot in the shade of the shed at this particular field.
My question is, should this be something that is allowed since the
judges' chairs define the zero line of the flight line (and moving it
back this far puts spectators in danger), and also because it gives the
judges an even more skewed view of the 60-degree lines than they already
have? I bring this up partly because of what Don wrote in this month's
K-Factor, but also because I was gigged for busting the box by these
"displaced" (in Louisiana we call them refugees) judges when in
fact, I knew I was close to the edge, but since I was actually standing
on the line, I knew I didn't bust it. As a pilot I should not have to
adjust the size of the box that I'm permitted to fly in just so the
judges can be more comfortable (granted, comfort in the heat and
humidity of <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Louisiana</st1:place></st1:State> is relative). I didn't bring
it up at the contest because by the time it bit me, it was too late to
complain. In the future, however, I think there need to be rules
regarding the positioning of judges if there aren't already, and if
there are rules, let's bring them to light and enforce them, and you can
bet I'll refuse to fly before judges that are that far behind me. Then
again, I also think the close edge of the runway should be the zero line
on maneuvers, not the judges' chairs. I did a little (ok, a lot) of math
to figure out how much box a pilot would be missing out on
with the judges postitioned 15 feet behind him. Using approximated
numbers from the contest in question I calculated that if the poles are
40 feet out from the pilot, and the judges are 15 feet behind the pilot,
the box size at 150 meters (which is 259.81m) based on the judges'
point of view is reduced by 232.61 feet (70.9 m), or 25.2%! This
would have been even greater if the poles were closer in or the judges
were further back.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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