<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1 =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16441" name=GENERATOR><!--[if !mso]>
<STYLE>v\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
o\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
w\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
.shape {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
</STYLE>
<![endif]--><o:SmartTagType name="PostalCode"
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType
name="State"
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType
name="City"
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType
name="place"
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType
name="Street"
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType
name="address"
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><!--[if !mso]>
<STYLE>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</STYLE>
<![endif]-->
<STYLE>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</STYLE>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></HEAD>
<BODY lang=EN-US vLink=purple link=blue bgColor=white>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, Lance, so many choices, each one further away
than the last. I don't understand why it's so hard for people to accept that a
judge could have been wrong? Same contest in question the judges one round
decided to discuss whether or not a maneuver performed by someone else (not me)
was a zero or not. The more experienced judge convinced the other to change his
score to a zero. Luckily my friend protested, and he was awarded the original
score given by the judge. The only way to maintain the integrity of our
contestant judging system is to have ongoing discussions about judging issues,
not just assume that a seminar and a test can cure all our woes. It would seem
our drive to achieve perfection in our flying would also make us strive to
achieve perfection in our judging.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@tx.rr.com href="mailto:patterndude@tx.rr.com">Lance Van
Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 15, 2007 7:52 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tony,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don't agree that the view of the pilot and
judge are the same. I have a habit, taught to me by senior judges in d6
long ago, that I do when judging. Before sitting down I stand in the
pilot station and look at the poles( best) or a landmark on the box
lines. then I sit and look again. I think it is amazing how even a
10 ft judge setback can change the perception of the box line. I know a
lot of pilots that like to stretch the box and scrape the edges on turnarounds
so its important to recognize even small parallax issues.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>BTW Matt, there were 2 judging seminars in D6.
One in Temple and one in Albuquerque. So many choices, it can be hard to
choose.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:45
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you, Tony. My point exactly. I'm glad
someone else realized that I was not asking for help on how to avoid
breaking the box, but just trying to bring up a potential problem with box
size judging based on simple geometry. Even though seminars are making
judging more uniform, there are still people like me who just flat-out can't
make a 10-hour drive to a contest just so they can attend a seminar. The
website is helpful; but open, ongoing discussion on these topics will keep
them fresh in our minds.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tony@radiosouthrc.com href="mailto:tony@radiosouthrc.com">Tony
Stillman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 14, 2007 8:44
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt:<BR>This is
something I have spoken about several times. The poles are there for
the JUDGES. The lines are for the PILOTS. If the poles cannot
be place on their proper location, THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED! This if
because of the very thing that you are talking about. If the poles
are at the 150 meter out location, the difference between the view of the
pilot and the judges, even if they are 25 feet behind the pilot, are
virtually the same. The closer you bring in the poles, but more of
an error you will create. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Tony Stillman,
President<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Radio
South<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">3702 N. Pace
Blvd</SPAN></FONT></st1:address></st1:Street><FONT color=navy><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Pensacola</SPAN></FONT></st1:City><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">, <st1:State w:st="on">FL</st1:State>
<st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">32505</st1:PostalCode></SPAN></FONT></st1:place><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">1-800-962-7802<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">www.radiosouthrc.com<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Matthew
Frederick<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday,
May 12, 2007 1:29 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box
Definition</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">OK, this forum has been too
quiet lately, so let's get some controversy going! This comment/question
is mainly directed to Don Ramsey, but I would appreciate everyone's
opinion. The good thing is, Don was at the contest where what I'm about to
describe happened. What I'm talking about here is the positioning of
judges behind the pilot. Under most circumstances the judges are
positioned maybe 3-5 feet behind the pilot with each judge's seat placed
on (or very close to) one of the 60-degree lines. Now, at a contest I
attended last week the judges apparently decided it was too hot out there
on the actual flight line, and they moved their chairs about 15-20 feet
behind the pilot in the shade of the shed at this particular field. My
question is, should this be something that is allowed since the judges'
chairs define the zero line of the flight line (and moving it back this
far puts spectators in danger), and also because it gives the judges an
even more skewed view of the 60-degree lines than they already have? I
bring this up partly because of what Don wrote in this month's K-Factor,
but also because I was gigged for busting the box by these "displaced" (in
Louisiana we call them refugees) judges when in fact, I knew I was
close to the edge, but since I was actually standing on the line, I knew I
didn't bust it. As a pilot I should not have to adjust the size of the box
that I'm permitted to fly in just so the judges can be more comfortable
(granted, comfort in the heat and humidity of <st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Louisiana</st1:place></st1:State> is
relative). I didn't bring it up at the contest because by the time it bit
me, it was too late to complain. In the future, however, I think there
need to be rules regarding the positioning of judges if there aren't
already, and if there are rules, let's bring them to light and enforce
them, and you can bet I'll refuse to fly before judges that are that far
behind me. Then again, I also think the close edge of the runway should be
the zero line on maneuvers, not the judges' chairs. I did a little (ok, a
lot) of math to figure out how much box a pilot would be missing
out on with the judges postitioned 15 feet behind him. Using approximated
numbers from the contest in question I calculated that if the poles are 40
feet out from the pilot, and the judges are 15 feet behind the pilot, the
box size at 150 meters (which is 259.81m) based on the judges' point
of view is reduced by 232.61 feet (70.9 m), or 25.2%! This would have
been even greater if the poles were closer in or the judges were further
back.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>