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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>While I appreciate the advice, Vince, I'm no spring
chicken. I was district champion in Novice the last full season I competed (yes,
it was called novice when I won it). I just came back and while I do fly faster
than most are used to seeing, I by no means fly too close in, if anything I'm
too far out. I couldn't attend a seminar because timing and money did not work
out to make it to one... nevermind the only one in our district is in Texas. I
have, however, read everything that I could find on the NSRCA site regarding
judging, including the powerpoint presentations for every class. I frequently
call for all classes except Novice, and I know what it means to bust the
box. Having just recently moved to 4 strokes, I know I have a learning curve
that I'm dealing with regarding throttle management. That wasn't the issue. My
issue was that the judges were 20 feet directly behind me, not calibrated to the
box, and I got judged incorrectly because they just looked up at the pole and
made my box smaller. I'll say this one more time: I'm not trying to complain
about my experience, I just wanted to spark a discussion that would make
everyone more aware of a potential problem. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't
want the discussion to waver from the original intent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=mjfrederick@cox.net
href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 14, 2007 5:44 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines, and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Matthew,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My best advice now is that you try to attend a pattern
seminar. I don't know how long you have been flying pattern but
attending a seminar is very important for you if you haven't done this.
In general, new pilots in lower classes have the tendency to fly too
close and fast (trying to manage the left stick). That make a
lot easier to break the box (sides and center). This could cause a
lot of other problems since there is not time to set up for the next
manuever and other errors and downgrades are produced a lot
easier. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=signature id=signature>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Matthew Frederick"
<mjfrederick@cox.net> <BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Vince, I fly Intermediate. Don, now that I
think about it I do remember hearing you discuss the cranes in the distance,
and how they kept moving, so I know you were calibrating yourself, but I
also don't think you ever judged my class. I really didn't bring this up to
try and complain about judges, just wanted some discussion on the topic to
help those who were unable to make it to a judging seminar (myself included)
to understand how we as judges should go about determining box size and
downgrades. I did appreciate at this contest that our judges were at the
very least more consistent than I had seen in the past, but I was also
disappointed that the pilot's meeting didn't cover any potential judging
issues (and with the new rules regarding takeoff and landing I felt this was
a mistake). Again, I'm just using this example to start discussion
in order to increase awareness, not to knock one particular judge or
contest. The more we all know abou t our rules and procedures, the better we
will become... as pilots and as judges.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johnferrell@earthlink.net
href="mailto:johnferrell@earthlink.net">John Ferrell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:01
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If judges were perfect we would only need one
per line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"Life is easier if you learn
to plow <BR> around the stumps"<BR><A
href="http://dixienc.us/">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=drykert2@rochester.rr.com
href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com">Del K. Rykert</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 13, 2007 3:16
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Please remember that at some local contests
not all judges my be NSRCA members or even certified. When their
is a small turnout would you rather not have a contest? or let the cd
fill the sits with the most capable people they can to keep the contest
going. In a perfect world all agree that all should be working
from the same page. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fhhuber@clearwire.net
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred Huber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007
11:44 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>When the judges are not properly "calibrating"
themselves as to the 60 deg box limits... its justification to contest
the downgrade they are giving for breaking the box.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The only cure for improperly trained judges is...
judge training sessions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>As noted in some other replies... the judges being
15 to 20 ft behind the pilot is WELL within the distance the regs
list. So there's no reason to complain about the judges being
that far back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There are methods for estimating the 60 deg angle...
and there are ways to establish references to the corret box limits
without use of a pocket protractor. (also explained in other people's
replies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you know the downgrades were for box violations
due to judges' error... you need to be seeing the CD.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net
href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007
3:48 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fred,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The problem with your assumption is
that you're assuming the judges are judging box ends based off of a
60-degree angle from them. How could they possibly be doing that? Do
they have a protractor in their pocket? The only pole is the
one that is 60 degrees from center for the pilot, not for the
judges. I promise you, I drew it, I did the geometry, and their
angle to the pole is smaller (in my example the judges had 51.55
degrees to each box end pole), reducing the size of the box. If the
poles aren't there for judges to use as referrences, why are they
there at all? I'll just let them know if I busted the box at the end
of the flight... they can trust me, right? I'm not saying the
judges' chairs define the box limits, I'm well aware of the fact
that where I'm standing defines the box. The problem is, in this
case the judges failed to take into account how far back they were,
used the pole as their referrence, and downgraded me 4 points for
busting the box when I didn't. Sure, relative to the distance from
me to the airplane it's a small amount, but when the poles are used
as reference points to judge box ends, the distance is no longer
negligible. Put the poles out the same distance as the aircraft,
then you can put the judges as far back as you feel, in fact it
would make it easier for them to judge the box ends then, but as
long as the poles are a few feet beyond the far side of the runway,
the difference in angles is not negligible. The parallax everyone
keeps talking about lately only applies to appearance of angles in
maneuvers, it has nothing to do with the box ends, which for the
judges are perceived by their position relative to the poles; move
them further back from the poles, and the angle to the poles gets
smaller... period... it's simple geometry that we learned in 7th
grade.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fhhuber@clearwire.net
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred Huber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007
2:25 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box
Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The judges being behind the pilot... if the
model is past 60 deg to the judge, its past 60 deg to the pilot.
(except potentially one edge of the box if the judge is off to the
opposite side...)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The further back the judges are... the more
ADDED SPACE they will perceive as being inside the 60 deg
box. The judges are tasked with locating the box limits in
relation to the pilot... not some poles that are not at the 175
meter maximum box limit line. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the poles are just 40 feet from the
pilot, they are only good as references for the pilot, not the
judges. (even if the judges are under 5 ft from the
pilot) If the judge wants to try to use them as reference...
he has to allow for the plane to appear to have passed the pole by
however many wingspans he is behind the pilot. (which errs
slightly in favor of the pilot)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you attend a judge's training seminar...
there are guidelines about judge positioning. The judge
positioning is supposed to be such that thier perspective will be
similar to the perspective of the pilot. The judge being 15
to 20 ft back isn't unreasonable as its a small fracton (appx 1/35
to 1/40) of the average distance from pilot to
airplane. The difference in "parallax" between what the
pilot sees and what the judge sees will be very small. (with the
judge having LESS parallax if he's straight behind the
pilot)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The judge's chair position DOES NOT define the
box limits. The pilot position (which is assigned and
marked) DOES. All of the field markings are relative to the
pilot position(s).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The CD can assign the safety/zero line as the
runway edge if desired... Setting it behind the pilots is
something I would not ever recommend. Since the pilots are
typically stationed fairly close to the runway, having the edge
close to the pilot be the safety line is usually
reasonable.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net
href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12,
2007 1:29 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>OK, this forum has been too quiet
lately, so let's get some controversy going! This
comment/question is mainly directed to Don Ramsey, but I would
appreciate everyone's opinion. The good thing is, Don was at the
contest where what I'm about to describe happened. What I'm
talking about here is the positioning of judges behind the
pilot. Under most circumstances the judges are positioned maybe
3-5 feet behind the pilot with each judge's seat placed on (or
very close to) one of the 60-degree lines. Now, at a
contest I attended last week the judges apparently decided it
was too hot out there on the actual flight line, and they moved
their chairs about 15-20 feet behind the pilot in the shade of
the shed at this particular field. My question is, should this
be something that is allowed since the judges' chairs define the
zero line of the flight line (and moving it back this far puts
spectators in danger), and also because it gives the judges an
even mor e skewed view of the 60-degree lines than they already
have? I bring this up partly because of what Don wrote in this
month's K-Factor, but also because I was gigged for busting the
box by these "displaced" (in Louisiana we call them refugees)
judges when in fact, I knew I was close to the edge, but
since I was actually standing on the line, I knew I didn't bust
it. As a pilot I should not have to adjust the size of the box
that I'm permitted to fly in just so the judges can be more
comfortable (granted, comfort in the heat and humidity of
Louisiana is relative). I didn't bring it up at the contest
because by the time it bit me, it was too late to complain. In
the future, however, I think there need to be rules regarding
the positioning of judges if there aren't already, and if there
are rules, let's bring them to light and enforce them, and you
can bet I'll refuse to fly before judges that are that far
behind me. Then again, I also think the close edge of the runway
should be the zero line on maneuvers, not the judges' chairs. I
did a little (ok, a lot) of math to figure out how much
box a pilot would be missing out on with the judges
postitioned 15 feet behind him. Using approximated numbers from
the contest in question I calculated that if the poles are 40
feet out from the pilot, and the judges are 15 feet behind the
pilot, the box size at 150 meters (which is 259.81m) based
on the judges' point of view is reduced by 232.61 feet (70.9 m),
or 25.2%! This would have been even greater if the poles
were closer in or the judges were further back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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