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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If judges were perfect we would only need one per
line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"Life is easier if you learn to
plow <BR> around the stumps"<BR><A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=drykert2@rochester.rr.com href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com">Del
K. Rykert</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 13, 2007 3:16 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Please remember that at some local contests not
all judges my be NSRCA members or even certified. When their is a small
turnout would you rather not have a contest? or let the cd fill the sits with
the most capable people they can to keep the contest going. In a perfect
world all agree that all should be working from the same page. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fhhuber@clearwire.net href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred
Huber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007 11:44
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>When the judges are not properly "calibrating" themselves
as to the 60 deg box limits... its justification to contest the downgrade
they are giving for breaking the box.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The only cure for improperly trained judges is... judge
training sessions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>As noted in some other replies... the judges being 15 to
20 ft behind the pilot is WELL within the distance the regs list. So
there's no reason to complain about the judges being that far
back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There are methods for estimating the 60 deg angle... and
there are ways to establish references to the corret box limits without use
of a pocket protractor. (also explained in other people's
replies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you know the downgrades were for box violations due to
judges' error... you need to be seeing the CD.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007 3:48
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fred,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The problem with your assumption is that
you're assuming the judges are judging box ends based off of a 60-degree
angle from them. How could they possibly be doing that? Do they have a
protractor in their pocket? The only pole is the one that is 60
degrees from center for the pilot, not for the judges. I promise you, I
drew it, I did the geometry, and their angle to the pole is smaller (in my
example the judges had 51.55 degrees to each box end pole), reducing the
size of the box. If the poles aren't there for judges to use as
referrences, why are they there at all? I'll just let them know if I
busted the box at the end of the flight... they can trust me, right? I'm
not saying the judges' chairs define the box limits, I'm well aware of the
fact that where I'm standing defines the box. The problem is, in this case
the judges failed to take into account how far back they were, used the
pole as their referrence, and downgraded me 4 points for busting the box
when I didn't. Sure, relative to the distance from me to the airplane it's
a small amount, but when the poles are used as reference points to judge
box ends, the distance is no longer negligible. Put the poles out the same
distance as the aircraft, then you can put the judges as far back as you
feel, in fact it would make it easier for them to judge the box ends then,
but as long as the poles are a few feet beyond the far side of the runway,
the difference in angles is not negligible. The parallax everyone keeps
talking about lately only applies to appearance of angles in maneuvers, it
has nothing to do with the box ends, which for the judges are perceived by
their position relative to the poles; move them further back from the
poles, and the angle to the poles gets smaller... period... it's simple
geometry that we learned in 7th grade.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fhhuber@clearwire.net href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred
Huber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007 2:25
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The judges being behind the pilot... if the model is
past 60 deg to the judge, its past 60 deg to the pilot. (except
potentially one edge of the box if the judge is off to the opposite
side...)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The further back the judges are... the more ADDED
SPACE they will perceive as being inside the 60 deg box. The
judges are tasked with locating the box limits in relation to the
pilot... not some poles that are not at the 175 meter maximum box limit
line. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the poles are just 40 feet from the pilot,
they are only good as references for the pilot, not the judges. (even if
the judges are under 5 ft from the pilot) If the judge wants
to try to use them as reference... he has to allow for the plane to
appear to have passed the pole by however many wingspans he is behind
the pilot. (which errs slightly in favor of the pilot)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you attend a judge's training seminar... there are
guidelines about judge positioning. The judge positioning is
supposed to be such that thier perspective will be similar to the
perspective of the pilot. The judge being 15 to 20 ft back isn't
unreasonable as its a small fracton (appx 1/35 to 1/40) of the
average distance from pilot to airplane. The difference in
"parallax" between what the pilot sees and what the judge sees will be
very small. (with the judge having LESS parallax if he's straight behind
the pilot)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The judge's chair position DOES NOT define the box
limits. The pilot position (which is assigned and marked)
DOES. All of the field markings are relative to the pilot
position(s).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The CD can assign the safety/zero line as the runway
edge if desired... Setting it behind the pilots is something I
would not ever recommend. Since the pilots are typically stationed
fairly close to the runway, having the edge close to the pilot be the
safety line is usually reasonable.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:29
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>OK, this forum has been too quiet lately,
so let's get some controversy going! This comment/question is mainly
directed to Don Ramsey, but I would appreciate everyone's opinion. The
good thing is, Don was at the contest where what I'm about to describe
happened. What I'm talking about here is the positioning of judges
behind the pilot. Under most circumstances the judges are positioned
maybe 3-5 feet behind the pilot with each judge's seat placed on (or
very close to) one of the 60-degree lines. Now, at a contest I
attended last week the judges apparently decided it was too hot out
there on the actual flight line, and they moved their chairs about
15-20 feet behind the pilot in the shade of the shed at this
particular field. My question is, should this be something that is
allowed since the judges' chairs define the zero line of the flight
line (and moving it back this far puts spectators in danger), and also
because it gives the judges an even more skewed view of the 60-degree
lines than they already have? I bring this up partly because of what
Don wrote in this month's K-Factor, but also because I was gigged for
busting the box by these "displaced" (in Louisiana we call them
refugees) judges when in fact, I knew I was close to the edge,
but since I was actually standing on the line, I knew I didn't bust
it. As a pilot I should not have to adjust the size of the box that
I'm permitted to fly in just so the judges can be more comfortable
(granted, comfort in the heat and humidity of Louisiana is relative).
I didn't bring it up at the contest because by the time it bit me, it
was too late to complain. In the future, however, I think there need
to be rules regarding the positioning of judges if there aren't
already, and if there are rules, let's bring them to light and enforce
them, and you can bet I'll refuse to fly before judges that are that
far behind me. Then again, I also think the close edge of the runway
should be the zero line on maneuvers, not the judges' chairs. I did a
little (ok, a lot) of math to figure out how much box a
pilot would be missing out on with the judges postitioned 15 feet
behind him. Using approximated numbers from the contest in question I
calculated that if the poles are 40 feet out from the pilot, and the
judges are 15 feet behind the pilot, the box size at 150 meters (which
is 259.81m) based on the judges' point of view is reduced by
232.61 feet (70.9 m), or 25.2%! This would have been even greater
if the poles were closer in or the judges were further
back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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