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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Vince, I fly Intermediate. Don, now that I think
about it I do remember hearing you discuss the cranes in the distance, and how
they kept moving, so I know you were calibrating yourself, but I also don't
think you ever judged my class. I really didn't bring this up to try and
complain about judges, just wanted some discussion on the topic to help those
who were unable to make it to a judging seminar (myself included) to understand
how we as judges should go about determining box size and downgrades. I did
appreciate at this contest that our judges were at the very least more
consistent than I had seen in the past, but I was also disappointed that the
pilot's meeting didn't cover any potential judging issues (and with the new
rules regarding takeoff and landing I felt this was a mistake). Again, I'm
just using this example to start discussion in order to increase awareness,
not to knock one particular judge or contest. The more we all know about our
rules and procedures, the better we will become... as pilots and as
judges.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=johnferrell@earthlink.net
href="mailto:johnferrell@earthlink.net">John Ferrell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:01 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If judges were perfect we would only need one per
line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"Life is easier if you learn to
plow <BR> around the stumps"<BR><A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=drykert2@rochester.rr.com
href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com">Del K. Rykert</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 13, 2007 3:16
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Please remember that at some local contests not
all judges my be NSRCA members or even certified. When their is a
small turnout would you rather not have a contest? or let the cd fill the
sits with the most capable people they can to keep the contest going.
In a perfect world all agree that all should be working from the same page.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fhhuber@clearwire.net href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred
Huber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007 11:44
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>When the judges are not properly "calibrating"
themselves as to the 60 deg box limits... its justification to contest the
downgrade they are giving for breaking the box.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The only cure for improperly trained judges is... judge
training sessions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>As noted in some other replies... the judges being 15 to
20 ft behind the pilot is WELL within the distance the regs list. So
there's no reason to complain about the judges being that far
back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There are methods for estimating the 60 deg angle... and
there are ways to establish references to the corret box limits without
use of a pocket protractor. (also explained in other people's
replies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you know the downgrades were for box violations due
to judges' error... you need to be seeing the CD.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007 3:48
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fred,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The problem with your assumption is that
you're assuming the judges are judging box ends based off of a 60-degree
angle from them. How could they possibly be doing that? Do they have a
protractor in their pocket? The only pole is the one that is 60
degrees from center for the pilot, not for the judges. I promise you, I
drew it, I did the geometry, and their angle to the pole is smaller (in
my example the judges had 51.55 degrees to each box end pole), reducing
the size of the box. If the poles aren't there for judges to use as
referrences, why are they there at all? I'll just let them know if I
busted the box at the end of the flight... they can trust me, right? I'm
not saying the judges' chairs define the box limits, I'm well aware of
the fact that where I'm standing defines the box. The problem is, in
this case the judges failed to take into account how far back they were,
used the pole as their referrence, and downgraded me 4 points for
busting the box when I didn't. Sure, relative to the distance from me to
the airplane it's a small amount, but when the poles are used as
reference points to judge box ends, the distance is no longer
negligible. Put the poles out the same distance as the aircraft, then
you can put the judges as far back as you feel, in fact it would make it
easier for them to judge the box ends then, but as long as the poles are
a few feet beyond the far side of the runway, the difference in angles
is not negligible. The parallax everyone keeps talking about lately only
applies to appearance of angles in maneuvers, it has nothing to do with
the box ends, which for the judges are perceived by their position
relative to the poles; move them further back from the poles, and the
angle to the poles gets smaller... period... it's simple geometry that
we learned in 7th grade.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fhhuber@clearwire.net
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred Huber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007 2:25
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The judges being behind the pilot... if the model is
past 60 deg to the judge, its past 60 deg to the pilot. (except
potentially one edge of the box if the judge is off to the opposite
side...)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The further back the judges are... the more ADDED
SPACE they will perceive as being inside the 60 deg box. The
judges are tasked with locating the box limits in relation to the
pilot... not some poles that are not at the 175 meter maximum box
limit line. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the poles are just 40 feet from the pilot,
they are only good as references for the pilot, not the judges. (even
if the judges are under 5 ft from the pilot) If the judge
wants to try to use them as reference... he has to allow for the plane
to appear to have passed the pole by however many wingspans he is
behind the pilot. (which errs slightly in favor of the
pilot)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you attend a judge's training seminar... there
are guidelines about judge positioning. The judge positioning is
supposed to be such that thier perspective will be similar to the
perspective of the pilot. The judge being 15 to 20 ft back isn't
unreasonable as its a small fracton (appx 1/35 to 1/40) of the
average distance from pilot to airplane. The difference in
"parallax" between what the pilot sees and what the judge sees will be
very small. (with the judge having LESS parallax if he's straight
behind the pilot)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The judge's chair position DOES NOT define the box
limits. The pilot position (which is assigned and marked)
DOES. All of the field markings are relative to the pilot
position(s).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The CD can assign the safety/zero line as the runway
edge if desired... Setting it behind the pilots is something I
would not ever recommend. Since the pilots are typically
stationed fairly close to the runway, having the edge close to the
pilot be the safety line is usually reasonable.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net
href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007
1:29 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>OK, this forum has been too quiet
lately, so let's get some controversy going! This comment/question
is mainly directed to Don Ramsey, but I would appreciate everyone's
opinion. The good thing is, Don was at the contest where what I'm
about to describe happened. What I'm talking about here is the
positioning of judges behind the pilot. Under most circumstances the
judges are positioned maybe 3-5 feet behind the pilot with each
judge's seat placed on (or very close to) one of the 60-degree
lines. Now, at a contest I attended last week the judges apparently
decided it was too hot out there on the actual flight line, and they
moved their chairs about 15-20 feet behind the pilot in the shade of
the shed at this particular field. My question is, should this be
something that is allowed since the judges' chairs define the zero
line of the flight line (and moving it back this far puts spectators
in danger), and also because it gives the judges an even more skewed
view of the 60-degree lines than they already have? I bring this up
partly because of what Don wrote in this month's K-Factor, but also
because I was gigged for busting the box by these "displaced" (in
Louisiana we call them refugees) judges when in fact, I knew I
was close to the edge, but since I was actually standing on the
line, I knew I didn't bust it. As a pilot I should not have to
adjust the size of the box that I'm permitted to fly in just so the
judges can be more comfortable (granted, comfort in the heat and
humidity of Louisiana is relative). I didn't bring it up at the
contest because by the time it bit me, it was too late to complain.
In the future, however, I think there need to be rules regarding the
positioning of judges if there aren't already, and if there are
rules, let's bring them to light and enforce them, and you can bet
I'll refuse to fly before judges that are that far behind me. Then
again, I also think the close edge of the runway should be the zero
line on maneuvers, not the judges' chairs. I did a little (ok, a
lot) of math to figure out how much box a pilot would be
missing out on with the judges postitioned 15 feet behind him. Using
approximated numbers from the contest in question I calculated that
if the poles are 40 feet out from the pilot, and the judges are 15
feet behind the pilot, the box size at 150 meters (which is
259.81m) based on the judges' point of view is reduced by
232.61 feet (70.9 m), or 25.2%! This would have been even
greater if the poles were closer in or the judges were further
back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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