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<DIV><FONT size=2>When the judges are not properly "calibrating" themselves as
to the 60 deg box limits... its justification to contest the downgrade they are
giving for breaking the box.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The only cure for improperly trained judges is... judge
training sessions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>As noted in some other replies... the judges being 15 to 20 ft
behind the pilot is WELL within the distance the regs list. So there's no
reason to complain about the judges being that far back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There are methods for estimating the 60 deg angle... and there
are ways to establish references to the corret box limits without use of a
pocket protractor. (also explained in other people's replies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you know the downgrades were for box violations due to
judges' error... you need to be seeing the CD.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007 3:48
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fred,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The problem with your assumption is that you're
assuming the judges are judging box ends based off of a 60-degree angle from
them. How could they possibly be doing that? Do they have a protractor in
their pocket? The only pole is the one that is 60 degrees from center for
the pilot, not for the judges. I promise you, I drew it, I did the geometry,
and their angle to the pole is smaller (in my example the judges had 51.55
degrees to each box end pole), reducing the size of the box. If the poles
aren't there for judges to use as referrences, why are they there at all? I'll
just let them know if I busted the box at the end of the flight... they can
trust me, right? I'm not saying the judges' chairs define the box limits, I'm
well aware of the fact that where I'm standing defines the box. The problem
is, in this case the judges failed to take into account how far back they
were, used the pole as their referrence, and downgraded me 4 points for
busting the box when I didn't. Sure, relative to the distance from me to the
airplane it's a small amount, but when the poles are used as reference points
to judge box ends, the distance is no longer negligible. Put the poles out the
same distance as the aircraft, then you can put the judges as far back as you
feel, in fact it would make it easier for them to judge the box ends then, but
as long as the poles are a few feet beyond the far side of the runway, the
difference in angles is not negligible. The parallax everyone keeps talking
about lately only applies to appearance of angles in maneuvers, it has nothing
to do with the box ends, which for the judges are perceived by their position
relative to the poles; move them further back from the poles, and the angle to
the poles gets smaller... period... it's simple geometry that we learned in
7th grade.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fhhuber@clearwire.net href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred
Huber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007 2:25
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The judges being behind the pilot... if the model is past
60 deg to the judge, its past 60 deg to the pilot. (except potentially one
edge of the box if the judge is off to the opposite side...)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The further back the judges are... the more ADDED SPACE
they will perceive as being inside the 60 deg box. The judges are
tasked with locating the box limits in relation to the pilot... not some
poles that are not at the 175 meter maximum box limit line.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the poles are just 40 feet from the pilot, they
are only good as references for the pilot, not the judges. (even if the
judges are under 5 ft from the pilot) If the judge wants to try
to use them as reference... he has to allow for the plane to appear to have
passed the pole by however many wingspans he is behind the pilot. (which
errs slightly in favor of the pilot)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you attend a judge's training seminar... there are
guidelines about judge positioning. The judge positioning is supposed
to be such that thier perspective will be similar to the perspective of the
pilot. The judge being 15 to 20 ft back isn't unreasonable as its a
small fracton (appx 1/35 to 1/40) of the average distance from pilot to
airplane. The difference in "parallax" between what the pilot sees and
what the judge sees will be very small. (with the judge having LESS parallax
if he's straight behind the pilot)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The judge's chair position DOES NOT define the box
limits. The pilot position (which is assigned and marked) DOES.
All of the field markings are relative to the pilot
position(s).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The CD can assign the safety/zero line as the runway edge
if desired... Setting it behind the pilots is something I would not
ever recommend. Since the pilots are typically stationed fairly close
to the runway, having the edge close to the pilot be the safety line is
usually reasonable.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:29
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Judges'
Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>OK, this forum has been too quiet lately, so
let's get some controversy going! This comment/question is mainly directed
to Don Ramsey, but I would appreciate everyone's opinion. The good thing
is, Don was at the contest where what I'm about to describe happened. What
I'm talking about here is the positioning of judges behind the pilot.
Under most circumstances the judges are positioned maybe 3-5 feet behind
the pilot with each judge's seat placed on (or very close to) one of
the 60-degree lines. Now, at a contest I attended last week the judges
apparently decided it was too hot out there on the actual flight line, and
they moved their chairs about 15-20 feet behind the pilot in the shade of
the shed at this particular field. My question is, should this be
something that is allowed since the judges' chairs define the zero line of
the flight line (and moving it back this far puts spectators in danger),
and also because it gives the judges an even more skewed view of the
60-degree lines than they already have? I bring this up partly because of
what Don wrote in this month's K-Factor, but also because I was gigged for
busting the box by these "displaced" (in Louisiana we call them refugees)
judges when in fact, I knew I was close to the edge, but since I was
actually standing on the line, I knew I didn't bust it. As a pilot I
should not have to adjust the size of the box that I'm permitted to fly in
just so the judges can be more comfortable (granted, comfort in the heat
and humidity of Louisiana is relative). I didn't bring it up at the
contest because by the time it bit me, it was too late to complain. In the
future, however, I think there need to be rules regarding the positioning
of judges if there aren't already, and if there are rules, let's bring
them to light and enforce them, and you can bet I'll refuse to fly before
judges that are that far behind me. Then again, I also think the close
edge of the runway should be the zero line on maneuvers, not the judges'
chairs. I did a little (ok, a lot) of math to figure out how much
box a pilot would be missing out on with the judges postitioned
15 feet behind him. Using approximated numbers from the contest in
question I calculated that if the poles are 40 feet out from the pilot,
and the judges are 15 feet behind the pilot, the box size at 150 meters
(which is 259.81m) based on the judges' point of view is reduced by
232.61 feet (70.9 m), or 25.2%! This would have been even greater if
the poles were closer in or the judges were further back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
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