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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you Ron.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am only trying to submit the argument
that $ numbers can mean different things when rolled up and you can't
see the breakdown. I was not trying to get into your NSRCA bag!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When I look at these details I might draw different
conclusions to you. Of course I might not, but the now data is clear to both us
all. A desired position to be in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My take would be that the number of meals booked
(We have to give banquet center a number in advance and then pay for that number
no matter what) was too high. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would quickly add that it is a pure gamble that
any banquet organizer has to make. If you guess too low, then you have
unhappy attendees and if you guess too high, you (the NSRCA) eat the bill.
At 120 attendees you would have only had $3000 to offset the $3532.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My conclusion would be that the other costs, except
for the service cost, were NSRCA meeting costs and not the responsibility of the
banquet bill.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now you know what went wrong and what it really
costing what, you are infinitely better equipped to make a better decision
or make a new and better plan.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>So back to what I was really talking
about before my example dragged me off topic. </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>What are the real additional costs for the
AMA when our nationals are hosted by the AMA?</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>To get there we need to know the real
costs, in detail, to the AMA when we are there running a nationals
event in Muncie. Then what would be the AMA costs, in the same
detail, if we were not there.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2>We can do the math!</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,<BR><BR>Eric.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=derekkoopowitz@gmail.com href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com">Derek
Koopowitz</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 02, 2007 5:25
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA
contrubution to nationals</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>And to follow on to Ron's email... the price was given for 150 people but
we never even came close to that many people attending. I'm not sure of
the exact attendance but I'm sure it was around 120 people (or way less).
</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 5/2/07, <B class=gmail_sendername>Ron Van
Putte</B> <<A href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</A>>
wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">The following is an excerpt from an
e-mail from Randa Coats at AMA, "Your banquet total last year was around
$4500.00. The charges were as follows $100 for AV equipment
rental, $250 for building rental, $3532.50 for food for 150 people
(breaks down to about $23.55 per person) and then a service charge of
$671.18. All banquets held there last year were a bit pricier
than usual."
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV>AMA organized the banquet, as well as arranging for meeting rooms for
judge certification and the NSRCA board meeting.
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0px"><BR> </DIV>Ron Van Putte
<DIV><SPAN class=e id=q_1124ead241d22cc2_1>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On May 2, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Grow Pattern wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was talking about 2005 not 2006.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You know I wasn't asking or referring to
2006, but now you come to mention it and you have, as you say, exact
information on how much money was spent, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><STRONG>What was the cost breakdown for
the 2006 banquet</STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=2>I ask because this number is
being used as a "decision maker" and we should know exactly how it was
derived.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'd like to know, as an
NSRCA member, exactly how much the items cost for the 2006
banquet and how much we collected. You should know exactly the meal cost,
the room rental, the audio equipment cost etc. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To be $34 per head prices, must have
gone up considerably since 2005!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The NSRCA did roll up all of the costs that I
mentioned below into one figure in 2005. The meal was pretty close
to $25 per head. The tickets were $25 per head per adult with 10
free tickets. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If it was $34 a head are you saying that we
subsidized the meal in 2006?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Before you do your usual on me, try and
remember that the example that I gave below, was how a specific number was
arrived at but when you took it apart the conclusion you could draw could
be very different than the point that was originally being made.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV><BR>Eric.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>P.S. I almost forgot, did the NSRCA
organize the banquet or did they hand that job over to the
AMA?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Arial size=1><FONT
size=2> </FONT><FONT size=2> </FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 5/2/07, <B class=gmail_sendername>Grow
Pattern</B> <<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:pattern4u@comcast.net" target=_blank>pattern4u@comcast.net
</A>> wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV>What I worry and wonder about the most is how we just accept
a number and then beat the death out of something when there is
no real data, or the data is suspect or even wrong in
the first place. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The first number that I read was that the AMA lost $25K running
the Nat's. Then later on I read that they had not been tracking it
very well. That should immediately raise a doubt about the number of
$25K.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- Then I began to wonder if the number included the two locations
that are used to run the Nat's. (Not all of te Nat's is run at
Muncie). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- Then I thought about the running costs of the AMA site at
Muncie. <STRONG>After all, It runs whether the Nat's are there or
not.</STRONG> So if we extract ONLY the additional Nationals
related costs only, what are they really? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- Beyond the field, maintenance what is the EXTRA cost
to the AMA associated with the running all of the events that
constitute a Nationals. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- Then I asked myself what are the costs related to <STRONG>just
running PATTERN</STRONG>. Do they have contest related equipment
already, or do they buy new stuff such as tents etc. just
for us. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- I know that they put out the box poles and provide
some PA equipment, but are extra summer workers hired for just
us? and what is the cost for the four days that we are
there.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>======================================================================================================================</DIV>
<DIV>In my business life I have seen numbers used to prove many
a point ,but almost every time the numbers did not hold up to
close examination.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In our case (pattern). In 2005 we raised around $10,400 in
pattern entry fees. ( I say "around" because there are a few
late-entry fee entries that are twice the normal fee and are hard to
track). Our important number is that we received $ $6755 from the AMA
after they took their cut. The AMA's important number is that they
receive the balance which as a round number of was in the region
of $3600. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Is that enough to cover what we cost them? The year before
the AMA claimed that they had lost $12,000 running the Nat's. Now it
is a $25,000 loss. The only action that I know of that took
place was to increase the AMA entrance fee portion by $10.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>- What is more important is to ask what; </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>a) Difference did the fee increase make, and </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>b) Why did the costs still go up so much.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>c) Was anything done to reduce costs.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The real problem is that what you are being fed as factual money
data is "roll-up-accounting" at its worst. The devil may be in the
details but so is the answer. You cannot solve a fiscal problem if you
don't know which part is failing or broken. </DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV>======================================================================================================================</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Accounting roll-ups are the real emery of all good decision
making. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let me give you a small example of what I mean. I am
familiar with the Pattern Nat's banquet. I read in the K-factor that
the banquet cost was too high and that another venue, [probably the
golf club] would be used again. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The number used was something like $34 a head and we should not
subsidize the meal. This looked similar to the 2005 number that I
managed. On the surface of it looked like good logic. BUT I
happen to know also that a bunch of other costs were dumped into the
"banquet bucket" in 2005. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The true cost of the banquet meal is the vendor charge minus
the money collected for meal tickets. In short,we collected
$2,560 from 112.5 people. (This was comprised of
adult meals, kids meals and 10 comp. tickets for people like
the Event director plus wife, AMA Contest director plus
wife, other key AMA officials and the HQ scoring staff plus
guest. The tickets were $25 per head. The NSRCA
subsidized the actual meal by $250. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now for the hidden costs! the NSRCA holds and hosts a
general meeting at the Banquet so it eats the costs for the hall ($200
and microphone/podium stuff etc.) reasonable so far. Then you add any
trophies and awards etc. Then the cost for the NSRCA board meeting the
night before, (we feed them way past midnight) was put in there. And
then the costs for the finals "free" meal and awards ceremony. [Note-
NSRCA trophies we pay for. AMA trophies we do not]. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>All of these relatively small items gradually pushed the
"roll-up accounting banquet" number up to nearly $4000. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Now you have a number that you can divide, say by 115 contestants
and you get $34. It is a good number that good people can and
will tie their argument to, but it is just plain WRONG data that
give a wrong conclusion. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Back to the shop.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Eric.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3><FONT face=Arial
size=2> </FONT><STRONG>From:</STRONG> </FONT></FONT><A
title=JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net" target=_blank><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>Jerry Stebbins</FONT></A><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT
size=3><B>To:</B> </FONT></FONT><A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>Discussion -NSRCA</FONT></A><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT
size=3><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 01, 2007 5:26
PM</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT
size=3><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Muncie's reason to
exist</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tony,I do know, and as voiced by others around at the time,
that Muncie was defined, justified and implemented as
a common location to hold AMA NATS Events. Whatever else it
did, or could do, was secondary. </DIV>
<DIV>That being the case, why isn't the real question "How do we
expand all the NATS and cover any associated expenses".</DIV>
<DIV>We have heard these same old complaints about the NATS
for many years, and yet the EC seems to let them fester,
rather than solving them.</DIV>
<DIV>I also have heard threats that if "it" don't get fixed then
the NATS will go away. I have news for that position-if AMA takes
that road--they will go away since they could not stand a
large Membership reduction. They could quickly be replaced by a
new viable "service the membership" organization holding all the
NATS! Maybe that is what they want? </DIV>
<DIV>Wonder what the Greater Muncie CoC would have to say about
that?</DIV>
<DIV>The cost deficit I have heard has always been expressed based
upon Membership $. What about the large $s given to AMA every
year by donations/bequests, and what about Event fees? How
about all the revenue taken in from the family members and
contestants on shirts/caps/whatever, and at the Museum?
Don't they all provide additional resources, or are
new tasks/jobs created to absorb them. Maybe the answer is to
reduce overall AMA growth/costs. </DIV>
<DIV>The majority of facilities/support items
(tents,tables,trailers,chairs,etc.) used to support the NATS
are already sunk costs-with typical periodic
maintenance or replacement costs.</DIV>
<DIV>What is it that "doesn't get done" for the time when a
few staff support the NATS, rather than their "normal"
jobs?</DIV>
<DIV>It would be interesting to hear a candid position of
each Member of the EC, to see what they actually think</DIV>
<DIV>the role of AMA at Muncie is.</DIV>
<DIV>It sounds like they may have in mind a totally different
mission for Muncie than was originally defined. </DIV>
<DIV>Looks like that would be a good project for AMA Members from
each AMA District to find out. </DIV>
<DIV>In any case it smells like AMA is moving away
from a "service the Membership" mentality, and towards a "do
more-different/create more" growth business mentality, using
complaints/costs as a justification. </DIV>
<DIV>Jerry</DIV>
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