<div>And to follow on to Ron's email... the price was given for 150 people but we never even came close to that many people attending. I'm not sure of the exact attendance but I'm sure it was around 120 people (or way less).
</div>
<div><br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 5/2/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Ron Van Putte</b> <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">The following is an excerpt from an e-mail from Randa Coats at AMA, "Your banquet total last year was around $4500.00. The charges were as follows $100 for AV equipment rental, $250 for building rental, $3532.50 for food for 150 people (breaks down to about $23.55 per person) and then a service charge of $671.18. All banquets held there last year were a bit pricier than usual."
<div><br> </div>
<div>AMA organized the banquet, as well as arranging for meeting rooms for judge certification and the NSRCA board meeting.
<div style="MARGIN: 0px"><br> </div>Ron Van Putte
<div><span class="e" id="q_1124ead241d22cc2_1">
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On May 2, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Grow Pattern wrote:</div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I was talking about 2005 not 2006. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">You know I wasn't asking or referring to 2006, but now you come to mention it and you have, as you say, exact information on how much money was spent, </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><strong>What was the cost breakdown for the 2006 banquet</strong></font></div></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> </div>
<div><strong><font face="Arial" size="2">I ask because this number is being used as a "decision maker" and we should know exactly how it was derived.</font></strong></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I'd like to know, as an NSRCA member, exactly how much the items cost for the 2006 banquet and how much we collected. You should know exactly the meal cost, the room rental, the audio equipment cost etc.
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">To be $34 per head prices, must have gone up considerably since 2005!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">The NSRCA did roll up all of the costs that I mentioned below into one figure in 2005. The meal was pretty close to $25 per head. The tickets were $25 per head per adult with 10 free tickets.
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">If it was $34 a head are you saying that we subsidized the meal in 2006?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Before you do your usual on me, try and remember that the example that I gave below, was how a specific number was arrived at but when you took it apart the conclusion you could draw could be very different than the point that was originally being made.
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Regards,</font></div><font face="Arial" size="2">
<div><br>Eric.</div>
<div> </div></font>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">P.S. I almost forgot, did the NSRCA organize the banquet or did they hand that job over to the AMA?</font></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><b>From:</b> <a title="derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:derekkoopowitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">Derek Koopowitz
</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">NSRCA Mailing List
</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 02, 2007 3:52 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA contrubution to nationals</div>
<div><br> </div>
<div>Just to be clear - we know exactly how much money we spend on the Nats for each of the items that Eric has outlined below. We have the bills from the AMA which shows how much the actual dinner cost us - including rental of the facility. Trophies and awards are NOT included in that cost as they are separate. The $34 per head cost was based purely on the convention center cost. There are no hidden/extra costs included in that amount.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This year we've budgeted $3500 for the banquet - so whatever bill we get from the country club will hopefully be close to that amount (or less).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Here is our budget (May K-F):</div>
<div> </div><font face="Arial" size="1">
<p align="left">NATS Expenses</p>
<p align="left">Awards 800.00</p>
<p align="left">Banquet 3,500.00</p>
<p align="left">Event Director 600.00</p>
<p align="left">Impound Personnel 300.00</p>
<p align="left">Judges 1,000.00</p>
<p align="left">Line Manager Site 1 240.00</p>
<p align="left">Line Manager Site 3 240.00</p>
<p align="left">Line Manager Site 4 240.00</p>
<p align="left">Meeting Expenses 350.00</p>
<p align="left">NSCRA Award BBQ 1,000.00</p>
<p align="left">Planning Meeting 450.00</p>
<p align="left">Postage 80.00</p>
<p align="left">Scoring HQ 300.00</p>
<p align="left">Scoring Site 4 180.00</p>
<p align="left">Site 1 Site Director 240.00</p>
<p align="left">Site 3 Site Director 240.00</p>
<p align="left">Site 4 Site Director 240.00</p>
<p align="left">Supplies 250.00</p>
<p align="left">TOTAL NATS Expenses 10,250.00</p>
<div></div></font>Hopefully we break even on this...
<div> </div>
<div><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 5/2/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Grow Pattern</b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:pattern4u@comcast.net" target="_blank">pattern4u@comcast.net
</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div>What I worry and wonder about the most is how we just accept a number and then beat the death out of something when there is no real data, or the data is suspect or even wrong in the first place. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The first number that I read was that the AMA lost $25K running the Nat's. Then later on I read that they had not been tracking it very well. That should immediately raise a doubt about the number of $25K.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>- Then I began to wonder if the number included the two locations that are used to run the Nat's. (Not all of te Nat's is run at Muncie). </div>
<div> </div>
<div>- Then I thought about the running costs of the AMA site at Muncie. <strong>After all, It runs whether the Nat's are there or not.</strong> So if we extract ONLY the additional Nationals related costs only, what are they really?
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>- Beyond the field, maintenance what is the EXTRA cost to the AMA associated with the running all of the events that constitute a Nationals. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>- Then I asked myself what are the costs related to <strong>just running PATTERN</strong>. Do they have contest related equipment already, or do they buy new stuff such as tents etc. just for us. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>- I know that they put out the box poles and provide some PA equipment, but are extra summer workers hired for just us? and what is the cost for the four days that we are there.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>======================================================================================================================</div>
<div>In my business life I have seen numbers used to prove many a point ,but almost every time the numbers did not hold up to close examination.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In our case (pattern). In 2005 we raised around $10,400 in pattern entry fees. ( I say "around" because there are a few late-entry fee entries that are twice the normal fee and are hard to track). Our important number is that we received $ $6755 from the AMA after they took their cut. The AMA's important number is that they receive the balance which as a round number of was in the region of $3600.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Is that enough to cover what we cost them? The year before the AMA claimed that they had lost $12,000 running the Nat's. Now it is a $25,000 loss. The only action that I know of that took place was to increase the AMA entrance fee portion by $10.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>- What is more important is to ask what; </div>
<div> </div>
<div>a) Difference did the fee increase make, and </div>
<div> </div>
<div>b) Why did the costs still go up so much.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>c) Was anything done to reduce costs.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The real problem is that what you are being fed as factual money data is "roll-up-accounting" at its worst. The devil may be in the details but so is the answer. You cannot solve a fiscal problem if you don't know which part is failing or broken.
</div>
<div><br> </div>
<div>======================================================================================================================</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Accounting roll-ups are the real emery of all good decision making. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Let me give you a small example of what I mean. I am familiar with the Pattern Nat's banquet. I read in the K-factor that the banquet cost was too high and that another venue, [probably the golf club] would be used again.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The number used was something like $34 a head and we should not subsidize the meal. This looked similar to the 2005 number that I managed. On the surface of it looked like good logic. BUT I happen to know also that a bunch of other costs were dumped into the "banquet bucket" in 2005.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The true cost of the banquet meal is the vendor charge minus the money collected for meal tickets. In short,we collected $2,560 from 112.5 people. (This was comprised of adult meals, kids meals and 10 comp. tickets for people like the Event director plus wife, AMA Contest director plus wife, other key AMA officials and the HQ scoring staff plus guest. The tickets were $25 per head. The NSRCA subsidized the actual meal by $250.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Now for the hidden costs! the NSRCA holds and hosts a general meeting at the Banquet so it eats the costs for the hall ($200 and microphone/podium stuff etc.) reasonable so far. Then you add any trophies and awards etc. Then the cost for the NSRCA board meeting the night before, (we feed them way past midnight) was put in there. And then the costs for the finals "free" meal and awards ceremony. [Note- NSRCA trophies we pay for. AMA trophies we do not].
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>All of these relatively small items gradually pushed the "roll-up accounting banquet" number up to nearly $4000. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Now you have a number that you can divide, say by 115 contestants and you get $34. It is a good number that good people can and will tie their argument to, but it is just plain WRONG data that give a wrong conclusion.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Back to the shop.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>Eric.</div>
<div> </div>
<div></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><font face="Arial" size="2"> </font><strong>From:</strong> </font></font><a title="JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net" target="_blank">
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Jerry Stebbins</font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><b>To:</b> </font></font><a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target="_blank">
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Discussion -NSRCA</font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 01, 2007 5:26 PM</font></font></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><font face="Times New Roman"><font size="3"><b>Subject:</b> [NSRCA-discussion] Muncie's reason to exist</font></font></div>
<div><br> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Tony,I do know, and as voiced by others around at the time, that Muncie was defined, justified and implemented as a common location to hold AMA NATS Events. Whatever else it did, or could do, was secondary. </div>
<div>That being the case, why isn't the real question "How do we expand all the NATS and cover any associated expenses".</div>
<div>We have heard these same old complaints about the NATS for many years, and yet the EC seems to let them fester, rather than solving them.</div>
<div>I also have heard threats that if "it" don't get fixed then the NATS will go away. I have news for that position-if AMA takes that road--they will go away since they could not stand a large Membership reduction. They could quickly be replaced by a new viable "service the membership" organization holding all the NATS! Maybe that is what they want?
</div>
<div>Wonder what the Greater Muncie CoC would have to say about that?</div>
<div>The cost deficit I have heard has always been expressed based upon Membership $. What about the large $s given to AMA every year by donations/bequests, and what about Event fees? How about all the revenue taken in from the family members and contestants on shirts/caps/whatever, and at the Museum? Don't they all provide additional resources, or are new tasks/jobs created to absorb them. Maybe the answer is to reduce overall AMA growth/costs.
</div>
<div>The majority of facilities/support items (tents,tables,trailers,chairs,etc.) used to support the NATS are already sunk costs-with typical periodic maintenance or replacement costs.</div>
<div>What is it that "doesn't get done" for the time when a few staff support the NATS, rather than their "normal" jobs?</div>
<div>It would be interesting to hear a candid position of each Member of the EC, to see what they actually think</div>
<div>the role of AMA at Muncie is.</div>
<div>It sounds like they may have in mind a totally different mission for Muncie than was originally defined. </div>
<div>Looks like that would be a good project for AMA Members from each AMA District to find out. </div>
<div>In any case it smells like AMA is moving away from a "service the Membership" mentality, and towards a "do more-different/create more" growth business mentality, using complaints/costs as a justification.
</div>
<div>Jerry</div>
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