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<div>The definition of the BOX is well understood by most. It should also be understood that the stage we fly in will change dimensions as we move the distance we fly at, in or out. Think of a pyrammid on it's side. The size of the maneuvers we fly may require adjustments to fit the available space. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>MattK</div>
<div> <br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: fhhuber@clearwire.net<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Sent: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:40 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)<br>
<br>
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<div><FONT size=2>Actually, if you use the whole box (everyone does when they figure out that it gives them TIME to make heading corrections virtually invisible) the 60 deg box defines the parallax. If you are flying half the distance from the flight line and make the length of your pass the same as someone flying the correct distance... all of your turnarounds will be outside the box and score ZERO. Then the parallax just doesn't matter.</FONT></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew Frederick</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 11, 2007 6:31 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2>Finally someone pointed out what needed to be pointed out here... The ANGLE at which the maneuver is done from center must remain the same in order for the lines flown by the aircraft to appear the same. The problem with telling a judge to watch for a particular thing to look wrong in order for it to be right is that people who fly even a little farther out are not going to be going anywhere near as far from center (angle-wise) as someone who flys closer in.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 5:05 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nope, Fred's right. The thing that everybody's missing is that the two planes, if at the extreme end of the box, present the same perspective. The guy that's only 5 feet from the flight line is only 10 feet from the pilot to avoid violating the box while the guy at 175 yards is 800 feet from the pilot. The angles are identical producing the same exact parallax. Eh?</FONT></div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=DaveL322@comcast.net href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Fred,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Our respective statements are not mutually exclusive. I don't disagree with your comments as stated below for a model at center.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Keith's original comment was about the effects of parallax at the end of the box......and he is correct.</div>
<div><br>
Dave</div>
<div> </div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: "Fred Huber" <<A href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">fhhuber@clearwire.net</A>> <br>
<div><FONT size=2>A 1/2 size model at half distance at the same angle... will look exactly the same.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2>If the model is at half distance and same height... then the angle has changed. If it is at a 60 deg angle when at 170 meters out, it will be at 30 deg if its 85 meters out but the same altitude.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2>There is a difference between distance and angle. Parallax is ALL about the angles. distance is irrelevant.</FONT></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=DaveL322@comcast.net href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 12:03 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Absolute height of maneuvers unchanged, the parallax of 60 inch model at 170 yards is not the same as a 60 inch model at 85 yards.</div>
<div><br>
Dave</div>
<div> </div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: "Fred Huber" <<A href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">fhhuber@clearwire.net</A>> <br>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<div><FONT size=2>Its basic geometry... similar triangles.</FONT></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=tkeithblack@gmail.com href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith Black</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:31 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fred, are you suggesting that a 45 degree angle at the end of the box would appear the same if the plane is five feet in front of the flight line or 500 feet in front of the flight line? I don't buy it.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith</FONT></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fhhuber@clearwire.net href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred Huber</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09, 2007 11:41 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><FONT size=2>Distance in/out has no effect on parallax. Its the angle relative to the viewed line.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT size=2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT size=2>The judges and pilots will have the same parallax to deal with if the pilot flys a 30 inch model at 85 yards away as they will with a 60 inch model at 170 yards. You might be hard pressed to tell plane which is which on film... Thats why 1/4 and 1/2 scale models get used for making movies. The camera can remove perspective clues that indicate distance and scale.</FONT></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=tkeithblack@gmail.com href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith Black</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09, 2007 11:24 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2>I tend to agree with Ed. Furthermore, what hard facts could possibly be stated about this in the rule book? Would you want it to say that when observing end maneuvers the judge should downgrade if the angle doesn't look steeper than 45 deg.? IMO this is inappropriate for the rule book, though it's perfectly acceptable to point out in a judges clinic or judging tips document.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keep in mind also that the distance in our out will also change the look of the end 45 deg. angle. This means that this discussion also would need to be in the rule book. I think the rule book should just state facts, educating the pilot and judge on how to recognize geometry so they can enforce the rule book is important but ancillary to the official rule book.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2>My opinion.</FONT></div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith Black</FONT> </div>
<div><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=divesplat@yahoo.com href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed Deaver</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09, 2007 11:04 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Have been thinking about this discussion (currently going on elsewhere also) and suddenly had the light bulb go on.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>At some clubs as we enter the driveway that leads to the field, 1/2 mile away or maybe a bit more, or the NATs site for example from site 3 (grass field I think) to site 2, it is very easy to watch the geometry of the plane being flown. At this distance, there is almost zero vertical parallax due to the distance from the pilot.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Sooooo, what do we see at this distance. Loops sure do look round to me when flown by good pilots, 45's look like 45's or maybe 50's (my contention is a slight bit steeper always scores better than a slight bit flatter) and even though the pilot is standing "under" the manuever, the good pilots still keep the geometry when looked at from a distance, Correct.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>At the end of the box, standing this distance away it is easier to see the geometry again, with only a very little parallax and the good pilots, IMO still keep the geometry very close to what it should be. The 45's may be a slight bit steeper, but from a distance the 1/2 cuban 8 flown well, will still have a round radius, with very close to a 45 degree downline (again depending on what the local teacher states), with the rolling element centered.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>My point is, too much is being made of this parallax issue and think judges will reward the pilot that flies the correct geometry, which again IMO, can be verified by watching a flight from a distance.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Just my $.02</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ed<br>
<br>
<B><I><A href='javascript:parent.ComposeTo("rcmaster199%40aol.com", "");'>rcmaster199@aol.com</A></I></B> wrote:</div>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<div>A question has been posted from an IMAC gentleman (who is trying to write better IMAC rules) as to how Pattern people fly and judge skewed appearance of maneuvers at box ends or in center when tall maneuvers (Hourglass, Vert Sq 8, Rolling Ess, etc) are involved. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Some of us have searched the book and found no wording written that describes what the pilots' responsibilities and the judges' responsibilities are in the performance of the skewed apparent geometry. There is a statement in the Judges Training tape in regard to end maneuvers.... that these will appear different even when accurately flown. The oness is essentially on the judges to know how the True Geometry should appear when flown at an angle to the eye, and must not downgrade for Apparent or Parallaxed appearance difference.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Spoke with Don about this earlier today and we decided to present the question to the group and get some conversation going. We should be explicit in the book regarding how such Apparent Geometry should be treated....ie- what is the pilot's responsibility and what is the judge's. Description improvements could be written over the next couple rule cycles.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The pilot's responsibility may appear easy.... they simply need to fly precise geometry per the book. True enough, BUT.....consider what is actually flown, especially by the top guys, and what scores well. These are not necessarily as precise as one might think. The better pilots tend to fly purposely flawed maneuvers that give the impression of precision. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>MattK</div>
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