<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Right on Matt.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mjfrederick@cox.net href="mailto:mjfrederick@cox.net">Matthew
Frederick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:31
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT
GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Finally someone pointed out what needed to be
pointed out here... The ANGLE at which the maneuver is done from center must
remain the same in order for the lines flown by the aircraft to appear the
same. The problem with telling a judge to watch for a particular thing
to look wrong in order for it to be right is that people who fly even a
little farther out are not going to be going anywhere near as far from center
(angle-wise) as someone who flys closer in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 5:05
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nope, Fred's right. The thing that everybody's
missing is that the two planes, if at the extreme end of the box, present
the same perspective. The guy that's only 5 feet from the flight line is
only 10 feet from the pilot to avoid violating the box while the guy at 175
yards is 800 feet from the pilot. The angles are identical producing the
same exact parallax. Eh?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Fred,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Our respective statements are not mutually exclusive. I don't
disagree with your comments as stated below for a model at center.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Keith's original comment was about the effects of parallax at the end
of the box......and he is correct.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Fred Huber" <<A
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">fhhuber@clearwire.net</A>> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT size=2>A 1/2 size model at half distance at the same
angle... will look exactly the same.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the model is at half distance and same height...
then the angle has changed. If it is at a 60 deg angle when at 170
meters out, it will be at 30 deg if its 85 meters out but the same
altitude.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There is a difference between distance and
angle. Parallax is ALL about the angles. distance is
irrelevant.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007
12:03 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Absolute height of maneuvers unchanged, the parallax of 60 inch
model at 170 yards is not the same as a 60 inch model at 85
yards.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Fred Huber" <<A
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">fhhuber@clearwire.net</A>>
<BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Its basic geometry... similar
triangles.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithblack@gmail.com
href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith Black</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007
2:31 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fred, are you suggesting that a 45
degree angle at the end of the box would appear the same if the
plane is five feet in front of the flight line or 500 feet in
front of the flight line? I don't buy it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fhhuber@clearwire.net
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred Huber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09,
2007 11:41 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Distance in/out has no effect on
parallax. Its the angle relative to the viewed
line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The judges and pilots will have the same
parallax to deal with if the pilot flys a 30 inch model
at 85 yards away as they will with a 60 inch model at
170 yards. You might be hard pressed to tell plane
which is which on film... Thats why 1/4 and 1/2 scale
models get used for making movies. The camera can remove
perspective clues that indicate distance and scale.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithblack@gmail.com
href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith Black</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09,
2007 11:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I tend to agree with Ed.
Furthermore, what hard facts could possibly be stated about
this in the rule book? Would you want it to say that when
observing end maneuvers the judge should downgrade if the
angle doesn't look steeper than 45 deg.? IMO this is
inappropriate for the rule book, though it's perfectly
acceptable to point out in a judges clinic or judging tips
document.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keep in mind also that the
distance in our out will also change the look of the end 45
deg. angle. This means that this discussion also would need to
be in the rule book. I think the rule book should just
state facts, educating the pilot and judge on how to recognize
geometry so they can enforce the rule book is important but
ancillary to the official rule book.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My opinion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith Black</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=divesplat@yahoo.com
href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed Deaver</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09,
2007 11:04 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Have been thinking about this discussion (currently
going on elsewhere also) and suddenly had the light bulb go
on.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>At some clubs as we enter the driveway that leads to
the field, 1/2 mile away or maybe a bit more, or the NATs
site for example from site 3 (grass field I think) to site
2, it is very easy to watch the geometry of the plane being
flown. At this distance, there is almost zero vertical
parallax due to the distance from the pilot.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sooooo, what do we see at this distance. Loops
sure do look round to me when flown by good pilots, 45's
look like 45's or maybe 50's (my contention is a slight bit
steeper always scores better than a slight bit flatter) and
even though the pilot is standing "under" the manuever, the
good pilots still keep the geometry when looked at from a
distance, Correct.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>At the end of the box, standing this distance away it
is easier to see the geometry again, with only a very little
parallax and the good pilots, IMO still keep the geometry
very close to what it should be. The 45's may be a
slight bit steeper, but from a distance the 1/2 cuban 8
flown well, will still have a round radius, with very close
to a 45 degree downline (again depending on what the local
teacher states), with the rolling element centered.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My point is, too much is being made of this parallax
issue and think judges will reward the pilot that flies the
correct geometry, which again IMO, can be verified by
watching a flight from a distance.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Just my $.02</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ed<BR><BR><B><I>rcmaster199@aol.com</I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV>A question has been posted from an
IMAC gentleman (who is trying to write better IMAC
rules) as to how Pattern people fly and judge skewed
appearance of maneuvers at box ends or in center when tall
maneuvers (Hourglass, Vert Sq 8, Rolling Ess, etc) are
involved. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Some of us have searched the book and found no
wording written that describes what the pilots'
responsibilities and the judges' responsibilities are in
the performance of the skewed apparent geometry. There is
a statement in the Judges Training tape in regard to end
maneuvers.... that these will appear different even when
accurately flown. The oness is essentially on the judges
to know how the True Geometry should appear when flown at
an angle to the eye, and must not downgrade for Apparent
or Parallaxed appearance difference.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Spoke with Don about this earlier today and we
decided to present the question to the group and get some
conversation going. We should be explicit in the book
regarding how such Apparent Geometry should be
treated....ie- what is the pilot's responsibility and what
is the judge's. Description improvements could be written
over the next couple rule cycles.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The pilot's responsibility may appear easy.... they
simply need to fly precise geometry per the book. True
enough, BUT.....consider what is actually flown,
especially by the top guys, and what scores well. These
are not necessarily as precise as one might think. The
better pilots tend to fly purposely flawed
maneuvers that give the impression of precision.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>MattK</DIV>
<DIV class=AOLPromoFooter>
<HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
what's free from AOL at <A
href="http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437"
target=_blank><B>AOL.com</B></A>.<BR></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by
AVG Free Edition.<BR>Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database:
268.18.26/752 - Release Date: 4/8/2007 8:34 PM<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG
Free Edition.<BR>Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.0.0/754 -
Release Date: 4/9/2007 10:59 PM<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free
Edition.<BR>Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.0.0/754 - Release
Date: 4/9/2007 10:59 PM<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>