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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Finally someone pointed out what needed to be
pointed out here... The ANGLE at which the maneuver is done from center must
remain the same in order for the lines flown by the aircraft to appear the same.
The problem with telling a judge to watch for a particular thing to look
wrong in order for it to be right is that people who fly even a little farther
out are not going to be going anywhere near as far from center (angle-wise) as
someone who flys closer in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 5:05
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT
GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nope, Fred's right. The thing that everybody's
missing is that the two planes, if at the extreme end of the box, present the
same perspective. The guy that's only 5 feet from the flight line is only 10
feet from the pilot to avoid violating the box while the guy at 175 yards is
800 feet from the pilot. The angles are identical producing the same exact
parallax. Eh?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Fred,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Our respective statements are not mutually exclusive. I don't
disagree with your comments as stated below for a model at center.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Keith's original comment was about the effects of parallax at the end
of the box......and he is correct.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Fred Huber" <<A
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">fhhuber@clearwire.net</A>> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT size=2>A 1/2 size model at half distance at the same
angle... will look exactly the same.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the model is at half distance and same height... then
the angle has changed. If it is at a 60 deg angle when at 170 meters
out, it will be at 30 deg if its 85 meters out but the same
altitude.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There is a difference between distance and angle.
Parallax is ALL about the angles. distance is
irrelevant.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 12:03
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Absolute height of maneuvers unchanged, the parallax of 60 inch
model at 170 yards is not the same as a 60 inch model at 85 yards.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Fred Huber" <<A
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">fhhuber@clearwire.net</A>> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Its basic geometry... similar
triangles.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithblack@gmail.com
href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith Black</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007
2:31 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fred, are you suggesting that a 45
degree angle at the end of the box would appear the same if the
plane is five feet in front of the flight line or 500 feet in front
of the flight line? I don't buy it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fhhuber@clearwire.net
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred Huber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09, 2007
11:41 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Distance in/out has no effect on parallax.
Its the angle relative to the viewed line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The judges and pilots will have the same
parallax to deal with if the pilot flys a 30 inch model
at 85 yards away as they will with a 60 inch model at
170 yards. You might be hard pressed to tell plane
which is which on film... Thats why 1/4 and 1/2 scale models
get used for making movies. The camera can remove
perspective clues that indicate distance and scale.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithblack@gmail.com
href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith Black</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09,
2007 11:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I tend to agree with Ed.
Furthermore, what hard facts could possibly be stated about this
in the rule book? Would you want it to say that when observing
end maneuvers the judge should downgrade if the angle doesn't
look steeper than 45 deg.? IMO this is inappropriate for the
rule book, though it's perfectly acceptable to point out in a
judges clinic or judging tips document.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keep in mind also that the distance
in our out will also change the look of the end 45 deg. angle.
This means that this discussion also would need to be in the
rule book. I think the rule book should just state facts,
educating the pilot and judge on how to recognize geometry so
they can enforce the rule book is important but ancillary to the
official rule book.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My opinion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith Black</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=divesplat@yahoo.com
href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed Deaver</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09,
2007 11:04 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Have been thinking about this discussion (currently going
on elsewhere also) and suddenly had the light bulb go
on.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>At some clubs as we enter the driveway that leads to the
field, 1/2 mile away or maybe a bit more, or the NATs site for
example from site 3 (grass field I think) to site 2, it is
very easy to watch the geometry of the plane being
flown. At this distance, there is almost zero vertical
parallax due to the distance from the pilot.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sooooo, what do we see at this distance. Loops sure
do look round to me when flown by good pilots, 45's look like
45's or maybe 50's (my contention is a slight bit steeper
always scores better than a slight bit flatter) and even
though the pilot is standing "under" the manuever, the good
pilots still keep the geometry when looked at from a distance,
Correct.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>At the end of the box, standing this distance away it is
easier to see the geometry again, with only a very little
parallax and the good pilots, IMO still keep the geometry very
close to what it should be. The 45's may be a slight bit
steeper, but from a distance the 1/2 cuban 8 flown well, will
still have a round radius, with very close to a 45 degree
downline (again depending on what the local teacher states),
with the rolling element centered.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My point is, too much is being made of this parallax
issue and think judges will reward the pilot that flies the
correct geometry, which again IMO, can be verified by watching
a flight from a distance.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Just my $.02</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ed<BR><BR><B><I>rcmaster199@aol.com</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV>A question has been posted from an IMAC gentleman
(who is trying to write better IMAC rules) as to how
Pattern people fly and judge skewed appearance of maneuvers
at box ends or in center when tall maneuvers (Hourglass,
Vert Sq 8, Rolling Ess, etc) are involved. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Some of us have searched the book and found no wording
written that describes what the pilots' responsibilities and
the judges' responsibilities are in the performance of the
skewed apparent geometry. There is a statement in the Judges
Training tape in regard to end maneuvers.... that these will
appear different even when accurately flown. The oness is
essentially on the judges to know how the True Geometry
should appear when flown at an angle to the eye, and must
not downgrade for Apparent or Parallaxed appearance
difference.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Spoke with Don about this earlier today and we decided
to present the question to the group and get some
conversation going. We should be explicit in the book
regarding how such Apparent Geometry should be
treated....ie- what is the pilot's responsibility and what
is the judge's. Description improvements could be written
over the next couple rule cycles.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The pilot's responsibility may appear easy.... they
simply need to fly precise geometry per the book. True
enough, BUT.....consider what is actually flown, especially
by the top guys, and what scores well. These are not
necessarily as precise as one might think. The better pilots
tend to fly purposely flawed maneuvers that give the
impression of precision. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>MattK</DIV>
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