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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nope, Fred's right. The thing that everybody's
missing is that the two planes, if at the extreme end of the box, present the
same perspective. The guy that's only 5 feet from the flight line is only 10
feet from the pilot to avoid violating the box while the guy at 175 yards is 800
feet from the pilot. The angles are identical producing the same exact parallax.
Eh?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 2:30
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT
GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Fred,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Our respective statements are not mutually exclusive. I don't
disagree with your comments as stated below for a model at center.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Keith's original comment was about the effects of parallax at the end of
the box......and he is correct.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Fred Huber" <<A
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">fhhuber@clearwire.net</A>> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT size=2>A 1/2 size model at half distance at the same
angle... will look exactly the same.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the model is at half distance and same height... then
the angle has changed. If it is at a 60 deg angle when at 170 meters
out, it will be at 30 deg if its 85 meters out but the same
altitude.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There is a difference between distance and angle.
Parallax is ALL about the angles. distance is irrelevant.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 12:03
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Absolute height of maneuvers unchanged, the parallax of 60 inch model
at 170 yards is not the same as a 60 inch model at 85 yards.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Fred Huber" <<A
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">fhhuber@clearwire.net</A>> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Its basic geometry... similar triangles.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithblack@gmail.com
href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith Black</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007
2:31 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fred, are you suggesting that a 45 degree
angle at the end of the box would appear the same if the plane is five
feet in front of the flight line or 500 feet in front of the flight
line? I don't buy it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=fhhuber@clearwire.net
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred Huber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09, 2007
11:41 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Distance in/out has no effect on parallax.
Its the angle relative to the viewed line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The judges and pilots will have the same parallax
to deal with if the pilot flys a 30 inch model at 85 yards
away as they will with a 60 inch model at 170
yards. You might be hard pressed to tell plane which is
which on film... Thats why 1/4 and 1/2 scale models get used
for making movies. The camera can remove perspective clues
that indicate distance and scale.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithblack@gmail.com
href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith Black</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09, 2007
11:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I tend to agree with Ed. Furthermore,
what hard facts could possibly be stated about this in the rule
book? Would you want it to say that when observing end maneuvers
the judge should downgrade if the angle doesn't look steeper than
45 deg.? IMO this is inappropriate for the rule book, though it's
perfectly acceptable to point out in a judges clinic or judging
tips document.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keep in mind also that the distance
in our out will also change the look of the end 45 deg. angle.
This means that this discussion also would need to be in the rule
book. I think the rule book should just state facts,
educating the pilot and judge on how to recognize geometry so they
can enforce the rule book is important but ancillary to the
official rule book.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My opinion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith Black</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=divesplat@yahoo.com
href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed Deaver</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 09,
2007 11:04 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Have been thinking about this discussion (currently going
on elsewhere also) and suddenly had the light bulb go on.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>At some clubs as we enter the driveway that leads to the
field, 1/2 mile away or maybe a bit more, or the NATs site for
example from site 3 (grass field I think) to site 2, it is very
easy to watch the geometry of the plane being flown. At
this distance, there is almost zero vertical parallax due to the
distance from the pilot.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sooooo, what do we see at this distance. Loops sure
do look round to me when flown by good pilots, 45's look like
45's or maybe 50's (my contention is a slight bit steeper always
scores better than a slight bit flatter) and even though the
pilot is standing "under" the manuever, the good pilots still
keep the geometry when looked at from a distance, Correct.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>At the end of the box, standing this distance away it is
easier to see the geometry again, with only a very little
parallax and the good pilots, IMO still keep the geometry very
close to what it should be. The 45's may be a slight bit
steeper, but from a distance the 1/2 cuban 8 flown well, will
still have a round radius, with very close to a 45 degree
downline (again depending on what the local teacher states),
with the rolling element centered.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My point is, too much is being made of this parallax issue
and think judges will reward the pilot that flies the correct
geometry, which again IMO, can be verified by watching a flight
from a distance.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Just my $.02</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ed<BR><BR><B><I>rcmaster199@aol.com</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV>A question has been posted from an IMAC gentleman
(who is trying to write better IMAC rules) as to how
Pattern people fly and judge skewed appearance of maneuvers at
box ends or in center when tall maneuvers (Hourglass, Vert Sq
8, Rolling Ess, etc) are involved. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Some of us have searched the book and found no wording
written that describes what the pilots' responsibilities and
the judges' responsibilities are in the performance of the
skewed apparent geometry. There is a statement in the Judges
Training tape in regard to end maneuvers.... that these will
appear different even when accurately flown. The oness is
essentially on the judges to know how the True Geometry should
appear when flown at an angle to the eye, and must not
downgrade for Apparent or Parallaxed appearance
difference.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Spoke with Don about this earlier today and we decided to
present the question to the group and get some conversation
going. We should be explicit in the book regarding how such
Apparent Geometry should be treated....ie- what is the pilot's
responsibility and what is the judge's. Description
improvements could be written over the next couple rule
cycles.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The pilot's responsibility may appear easy.... they
simply need to fly precise geometry per the book. True enough,
BUT.....consider what is actually flown, especially by the top
guys, and what scores well. These are not necessarily as
precise as one might think. The better pilots tend to fly
purposely flawed maneuvers that give the impression of
precision. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>MattK</DIV>
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