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<DIV>Some great points Jim. One minor correction, it used to be a 75
degree box line in Scale Aerobatics.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ed</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com
href="mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com">Jim Woodward</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 5:35
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT
GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Guys, this discussion
as carried forth on the Flying giants website under two different threads seen
here:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=1>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="COLOR: navy; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A
title=http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg200/14364-rfa-judging-45-lines.html
href="http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg200/14364-rfa-judging-45-lines.html">http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg200/14364-rfa-judging-45-lines.html</A><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="COLOR: navy; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1"><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A
title=http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg191/14581-clearest-presentation-proper-gemotery-judge.html
href="http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg191/14581-clearest-presentation-proper-gemotery-judge.html">http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg191/14581-clearest-presentation-proper-gemotery-judge.html</A><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT>
</LI></OL>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This discussion was a
carry over from the South East IMAC judging seminar which I attended in
<ST1:PLACE w:st="on"><ST1:CITY w:st="on">Augusta</ST1:CITY>, <ST1:STATE
w:st="on">GA</ST1:STATE></ST1:PLACE> this March. The reason this
discussion was not squashed as heresy immediately was that two influential
folks were “supporting” a “judge-centered-paradigm” versus a “true-geometry”
paradigm. The language of a guide type of statement regarding “clearest
geometry” and the language of the newly passed “airspace control score” were
being construed beyond their individual scope and argued for “overriding”
other model aerobatic fundamentals like: 1.) Maneuvers must be
wind-corrected and flown in a single vertical plane, 2.) Maneuvers like
top-hats or rolling circles must be flown with the horizontal portion in a
single horizontal plane. That is as vanilla as I can describe the 3 +
hrs of single debate on this issue (obviously I was on the true-geometry side
of the debate). <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">What needs to be
understood is that “pattern” has decided to “control” the airspace on
every-single-maneuver. The maneuvers are supposed to be flown on a line
parallel to the flight line 150-175 meters in front of the pilot, and not
extend past the 60 degree box lines. If maneuvers are flown out of this
box or “controlled” airspace, there are downgrades that should be applied (we
all know what they are). Thus, although the pattern sequence is subject
to some amount of parallax effect, end box maneuvers can still be judged quite
easily enough. Parallax is a fact and we have learned to deal with
it. It is taught in the judging seminars, described in the AMA video,
and the ‘experienced’ pilots also train the new pilots about it and how to
fly/judge it. Another fact of Pattern is that we are “top-heavy” with a
much higher number of pattern pilots in the Masters and FAI classes, versus
Sportsman or Intermediate – IE, folks know the
rules.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Now, compare and
contrast this with IMAC: IMAC has elected “not” to control the
airspace. The only rule seemingly applied is the “dead-line” – a line
which is typically just on the far side of the runway. Pilots have
“free-reign” to fly where ever they want. There is no center line any
more. There is sort-of-left, and sort-of-right maneuvers. Thus,
the majority of IMAC pilots I’ve seen fly just on the far side of the
dead-line and nearly over the runway. How the hell is any
end-box-maneuver going to look good from the pilot or judge perspective if the
pilot positions the plane just on the far side of the runway and does a
turnaround 400 meters away? Thus, the degree to which parallax plays a
part in the IMAC contest is HUGELY different than a pattern contest, because
pattern “describes” the airspace where as IMAC does not. Add to this
that IMAC is bottom-heavy, with most of the contestants hovering in the Basic,
Sportsman, and Intermediate classes. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In an attempt to
reduce the “footprint” of the IMAC sequences, the previously used 80 degree (I
think) box lines and center line were done-away with. Many people will
now say that this was a huge mistake. Replacing “objective” criteria
like the box lines may be giving way to new paradigms like, “… well, maybe the
pilot doesn’t have to keep his wings level on end-box-maneuvers…. Maybe the
pilot doesn’t need to fly true-geometry… etc., … I thought is looked OK”
. This simply equates to dumbing-down the judging criteria in allow the
lowest-common-denominator type of judge to be effective – essentially allowing
for individual standards based on every judge.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Pattern has a VERY
good thing going with the ‘standardization’ of scoring and airspace control
used throughout the <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE
w:st="on">USA</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION> and World. From a
teaching/coaching/mentoring perspective it is clearly better to at least
“begin” with a truth-source like “true-geometry” – versus some “infinitely”
changing way to fly a maneuver based on its location in the box. I truly
believe IMAC would be best served to re-institute box lines and this time
around, “enforce” box violations. Given the changes in the community
regarding sound (now most everyone who competes uses canisters and many
3-bladed props to reduce noise), and the recognition that some fields have
been lost due to overfly and such, that the community would enforce the box
limitations this time around. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is to my opinion
clearly the responsibility of the judge to become educated and the
responsibility of the experienced pilots to teach/coach/mentor new
folks. Moving towards a “judge-centered-paradigm” would be a giant step
backwards towards impression judging.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My 0.02
cents,<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim
W.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Keith Black<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 3:31
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <ST1:PERSONNAME
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</ST1:PERSONNAME><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT
GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fred, are you suggesting that a 45
degree angle at the end of the box would appear the same if the plane is five
feet in front of the flight line or 500 feet in front of the flight
line? I don't buy it.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Keith</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred
Huber</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Monday,
April 09, 2007 11:41 PM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED
VIEW)<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Distance in/out has no effect on parallax. Its
the angle relative to the viewed line.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The judges and pilots will have the same parallax to
deal with if the pilot flys a 30 inch model at 85 yards
away as they will with a 60 inch model at 170 yards. You
might be hard pressed to tell plane which is which on film... Thats
why 1/4 and 1/2 scale models get used for making movies. The camera
can remove perspective clues that indicate distance and
scale.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com
href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith Black</A>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Monday, April 09, 2007 11:24 PM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED
VIEW)<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I tend to agree with Ed.
Furthermore, what hard facts could possibly be stated about this in the
rule book? Would you want it to say that when observing end maneuvers the
judge should downgrade if the angle doesn't look steeper than 45 deg.? IMO
this is inappropriate for the rule book, though it's perfectly acceptable
to point out in a judges clinic or judging tips
document.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Keep in mind also that the
distance in our out will also change the look of the end 45 deg. angle.
This means that this discussion also would need to be in the rule
book. I think the rule book should just state facts, educating the
pilot and judge on how to recognize geometry so they can enforce the rule
book is important but ancillary to the official rule
book.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My
opinion.</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Keith
Black</SPAN></FONT> <O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">----- Original Message -----
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
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face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed
Deaver</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
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title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Monday, April 09, 2007 11:04 PM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED
VIEW)<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Have been thinking about this discussion
(currently going on elsewhere also) and suddenly had the light bulb go
on.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">At some clubs as we enter the driveway that
leads to the field, 1/2 mile away or maybe a bit more, or the NATs site
for example from site 3 (grass field I think) to site 2, it is very easy
to watch the geometry of the plane being flown. At this distance,
there is almost zero vertical parallax due to the distance from the
pilot.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Sooooo, what do we see at this distance.
Loops sure do look round to me when flown by good pilots, 45's look like
45's or maybe 50's (my contention is a slight bit steeper always scores
better than a slight bit flatter) and even though the pilot is standing
"under" the manuever, the good pilots still keep the geometry when
looked at from a distance, Correct.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">At the end of the box, standing this distance
away it is easier to see the geometry again, with only a very little
parallax and the good pilots, IMO still keep the geometry very close to
what it should be. The 45's may be a slight bit steeper, but from
a distance the 1/2 cuban 8 flown well, will still have a round radius,
with very close to a 45 degree downline (again depending on what the
local teacher states), with the rolling element
centered.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">My point is, too much is being made of this
parallax issue and think judges will reward the pilot that flies the
correct geometry, which again IMO, can be verified by watching a flight
from a distance.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Just my $.02<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ed<BR><BR><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">rcmaster199@aol.com</SPAN></I></B>
wrote:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">A question has been posted from an
IMAC gentleman (who is trying to write better IMAC rules) as
to how Pattern people fly and judge skewed appearance of maneuvers at
box ends or in center when tall maneuvers (Hourglass, Vert Sq 8,
Rolling Ess, etc) are involved. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Some of us have searched the book and found no
wording written that describes what the pilots' responsibilities and
the judges' responsibilities are in the performance of the skewed
apparent geometry. There is a statement in the Judges Training tape in
regard to end maneuvers.... that these will appear different even when
accurately flown. The oness is essentially on the judges to know how
the True Geometry should appear when flown at an angle to the eye, and
must not downgrade for Apparent or Parallaxed appearance
difference.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Spoke with Don about this earlier today and we
decided to present the question to the group and get some conversation
going. We should be explicit in the book regarding how such Apparent
Geometry should be treated....ie- what is the pilot's responsibility
and what is the judge's. Description improvements could be written
over the next couple rule cycles.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The pilot's responsibility may appear easy....
they simply need to fly precise geometry per the book. True enough,
BUT.....consider what is actually flown, especially by the top guys,
and what scores well. These are not necessarily as precise as one
might think. The better pilots tend to fly purposely flawed
maneuvers that give the impression of precision.
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">MattK<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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