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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks Ed,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Ed Alt<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 7:09
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Some great points
Jim. One minor correction, it used to be a 75 degree box line in Scale
Aerobatics.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Ed<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com"
title="mailto:Jim.Woodward@armorholdings.com">Jim Woodward</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 5:35 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Guys, this discussion as carried forth on
the Flying giants website under two different threads seen here:<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href="http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg200/14364-rfa-judging-45-lines.html"
title="http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg200/14364-rfa-judging-45-lines.html">http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg200/14364-rfa-judging-45-lines.html</a><O:P></O:P></span></font>
<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href="http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg191/14581-clearest-presentation-proper-gemotery-judge.html"
title="http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg191/14581-clearest-presentation-proper-gemotery-judge.html">http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/fg191/14581-clearest-presentation-proper-gemotery-judge.html</a><O:P></O:P></span></font>
<o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This discussion was a carry over from the
South East IMAC judging seminar which I attended in <ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><ST1:CITY u1:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Augusta</ST1:CITY></st1:City>, <ST1:STATE u1:st="on"><st1:State
w:st="on">GA</ST1:STATE></ST1:PLACE></st1:State></st1:place> this March.
The reason this discussion was not squashed as heresy immediately was that two
influential folks were “supporting” a
“judge-centered-paradigm” versus a “true-geometry”
paradigm. The language of a guide type of statement regarding
“clearest geometry” and the language of the newly passed “airspace
control score” were being construed beyond their individual scope and
argued for “overriding” other model aerobatic fundamentals like:
1.) Maneuvers must be wind-corrected and flown in a single vertical
plane, 2.) Maneuvers like top-hats or rolling circles must be flown with the
horizontal portion in a single horizontal plane. That is as vanilla as I
can describe the 3 + hrs of single debate on this issue (obviously I was on the
true-geometry side of the debate). <O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What needs to be understood is that
“pattern” has decided to “control” the airspace on every-single-maneuver.
The maneuvers are supposed to be flown on a line parallel to the flight line
150-175 meters in front of the pilot, and not extend past the 60 degree box
lines. If maneuvers are flown out of this box or “controlled”
airspace, there are downgrades that should be applied (we all know what they
are). Thus, although the pattern sequence is subject to some amount of
parallax effect, end box maneuvers can still be judged quite easily
enough. Parallax is a fact and we have learned to deal with it. It
is taught in the judging seminars, described in the AMA video, and the
‘experienced’ pilots also train the new pilots about it and how to
fly/judge it. Another fact of Pattern is that we are
“top-heavy” with a much higher number of pattern pilots in the
Masters and FAI classes, versus Sportsman or Intermediate – IE, folks
know the rules.<O:P></O:P></span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now, compare and contrast this with
IMAC: IMAC has elected “not” to control the airspace.
The only rule seemingly applied is the “dead-line” – a line
which is typically just on the far side of the runway. Pilots have
“free-reign” to fly where ever they want. There is no center
line any more. There is sort-of-left, and sort-of-right maneuvers.
Thus, the majority of IMAC pilots I’ve seen fly just on the far side of
the dead-line and nearly over the runway. How the hell is any
end-box-maneuver going to look good from the pilot or judge perspective if the
pilot positions the plane just on the far side of the runway and does a
turnaround 400 meters away? Thus, the degree to which parallax plays a
part in the IMAC contest is HUGELY different than a pattern contest, because
pattern “describes” the airspace where as IMAC does not. Add
to this that IMAC is bottom-heavy, with most of the contestants hovering in the
Basic, Sportsman, and Intermediate classes. <O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In an attempt to reduce the
“footprint” of the IMAC sequences, the previously used 80 degree (I
think) box lines and center line were done-away with. Many people will
now say that this was a huge mistake. Replacing “objective”
criteria like the box lines may be giving way to new paradigms like,
“… well, maybe the pilot doesn’t have to keep his wings level
on end-box-maneuvers…. Maybe the pilot doesn’t need to fly
true-geometry… etc., … I thought is looked OK” . This
simply equates to dumbing-down the judging criteria in allow the
lowest-common-denominator type of judge to be effective – essentially
allowing for individual standards based on every judge.<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Pattern has a VERY good thing going with
the ‘standardization’ of scoring and airspace control used
throughout the <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION u1:st="on"><ST1:PLACE u1:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">USA</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION></st1:place></st1:country-region>
and World. From a teaching/coaching/mentoring perspective it is clearly
better to at least “begin” with a truth-source like
“true-geometry” – versus some “infinitely”
changing way to fly a maneuver based on its location in the box. I truly
believe IMAC would be best served to re-institute box lines and this time
around, “enforce” box violations. Given the changes in the
community regarding sound (now most everyone who competes uses canisters and
many 3-bladed props to reduce noise), and the recognition that some fields have
been lost due to overfly and such, that the community would enforce the box
limitations this time around. <O:P></O:P></span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It is to my opinion clearly the
responsibility of the judge to become educated and the responsibility of the
experienced pilots to teach/coach/mentor new folks. Moving towards a
“judge-centered-paradigm” would be a giant step backwards towards
impression judging.<O:P></O:P></span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My 0.02 cents,<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks,<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jim W.<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><O:P> </O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Keith Black<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 10, 2007 3:31
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <ST1:PERSONNAME u1:st="on"><st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</ST1:PERSONNAME></st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)</span></font><O:P></O:P><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><O:P> </O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Fred, are you suggesting that a 45 degree
angle at the end of the box would appear the same if the plane is five feet in
front of the flight line or 500 feet in front of the flight line? I don't
buy it.</span></font><O:P></O:P><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Keith</span></font><O:P></O:P><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>----- Original Message ----- <O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net" title="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.net">Fred
Huber</a> <O:P></O:P></span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> <O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Monday, April 09, 2007 11:41 PM<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><O:P> </O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Distance in/out has no effect on
parallax. Its the angle relative to the viewed line.</span></font><O:P></O:P><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>The judges and pilots will have the same
parallax to deal with if the pilot flys a 30 inch model at 85 yards
away as they will with a 60 inch model at 170 yards. You might
be hard pressed to tell plane which is which on film... Thats why 1/4 and
1/2 scale models get used for making movies. The camera can remove perspective
clues that indicate distance and scale.</span></font><O:P></O:P><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>----- Original Message ----- <O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com" title="mailto:tkeithblack@gmail.com">Keith
Black</a> <O:P></O:P></span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> <O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Monday, April 09, 2007 11:24 PM<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><O:P> </O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>I tend to agree with Ed. Furthermore,
what hard facts could possibly be stated about this in the rule book? Would you
want it to say that when observing end maneuvers the judge should downgrade if
the angle doesn't look steeper than 45 deg.? IMO this is inappropriate for the
rule book, though it's perfectly acceptable to point out in a judges clinic or
judging tips document.</span></font><O:P></O:P><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Keep in mind also that the distance in
our out will also change the look of the end 45 deg. angle. This means that
this discussion also would need to be in the rule book. I think the rule
book should just state facts, educating the pilot and judge on how to recognize
geometry so they can enforce the rule book is important but ancillary to the
official rule book.</span></font><O:P></O:P><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>My opinion.</span></font><O:P></O:P><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Keith Black</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font><O:P></O:P></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>----- Original Message ----- <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> <a
href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com" title="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed Deaver</a>
<O:P></O:P></span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> <O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Monday, April 09, 2007 11:04 PM<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] APPARENT GEOMETRY (PARALLAXED VIEW)<O:P></O:P></span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><O:P> </O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Have been thinking about this discussion
(currently going on elsewhere also) and suddenly had the light bulb go on.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>At some clubs as we enter the driveway
that leads to the field, 1/2 mile away or maybe a bit more, or the NATs site
for example from site 3 (grass field I think) to site 2, it is very easy to
watch the geometry of the plane being flown. At this distance, there is
almost zero vertical parallax due to the distance from the pilot.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Sooooo, what do we see at this
distance. Loops sure do look round to me when flown by good pilots, 45's
look like 45's or maybe 50's (my contention is a slight bit steeper always
scores better than a slight bit flatter) and even though the pilot is standing
"under" the manuever, the good pilots still keep the geometry when
looked at from a distance, Correct.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>At the end of the box, standing this
distance away it is easier to see the geometry again, with only a very little
parallax and the good pilots, IMO still keep the geometry very close to what it
should be. The 45's may be a slight bit steeper, but from a distance the
1/2 cuban 8 flown well, will still have a round radius, with very close to a 45
degree downline (again depending on what the local teacher states), with the
rolling element centered.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>My point is, too much is being made of
this parallax issue and think judges will reward the pilot that flies the
correct geometry, which again IMO, can be verified by watching a flight from a
distance.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Just my $.02<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Ed<br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>rcmaster199@aol.com</span></i></b>
wrote:<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>A question has been posted from an
IMAC gentleman (who is trying to write better IMAC rules) as to how
Pattern people fly and judge skewed appearance of maneuvers at box ends or in
center when tall maneuvers (Hourglass, Vert Sq 8, Rolling Ess, etc) are involved.
<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Some of us have searched the book and
found no wording written that describes what the pilots' responsibilities and
the judges' responsibilities are in the performance of the skewed apparent
geometry. There is a statement in the Judges Training tape in regard to end
maneuvers.... that these will appear different even when accurately flown. The
oness is essentially on the judges to know how the True Geometry should appear
when flown at an angle to the eye, and must not downgrade for Apparent or Parallaxed
appearance difference.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Spoke with Don about this earlier today
and we decided to present the question to the group and get some conversation
going. We should be explicit in the book regarding how such Apparent Geometry
should be treated....ie- what is the pilot's responsibility and what is the
judge's. Description improvements could be written over the next couple rule
cycles.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>The pilot's responsibility may appear
easy.... they simply need to fly precise geometry per the book. True enough,
BUT.....consider what is actually flown, especially by the top guys, and what
scores well. These are not necessarily as precise as one might think. The
better pilots tend to fly purposely flawed maneuvers that give the
impression of precision. <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>MattK<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='margin-top:7.5pt'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:7.5pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>AOL now
offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at <a
href="http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437" target="_blank"
title="http://www.aol.com/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000437"><b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>AOL.com</span></b></a>.<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:7.5pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:7.5pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><O:P> </O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
Checked by AVG Free Edition.<br>
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/752 - Release Date: 4/8/2007 8:34
PM<O:P></O:P><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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