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<DIV><FONT size=2>would it be fair to score as if elements outside the box just
didn't happen?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>EG: Avelanche... if the snap at top is outside box count
it as a completely blown snap. -5 points because its half of the
maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=drykert2@rochester.rr.com href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com">Del
K. Rykert</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 02, 2007 2:38
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have that click in my neck also when they get
to box violation height.. lol Old judging neck syndrome..
lol <tic> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 02, 2007 2:25
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Dean,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree 100%. Actually the 60 degree box-top violation
downgrade is directly proportional to the paint I feel in my neck.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Dean Pappas" <<A
href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</A>> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Hi Vince,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>I find hiding the overall geometry by flying too large for the
closeness to be as just as objectionable (or maybe moreso) as flying
too far out to see the details like wingtip wiggles
etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Usually, the pilot who does this gives me plenty of 60
degree box-top violations to work with. In addition, they tend to fly
poor overall geometries as well, because they can't see
them!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>The lemming-march to fly painfully close has dominated more than
just a few nationals over the years and with the help of hidsight I can
now point and laugh. At the time it was frustrating
...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Comments anybody else?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>vicenterc@comcast.net<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 02, 2007 11:17
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Cc:</B>
Jerry Stebbins<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Talking about "Craftsmanship". Sometimes, I have seen some
pilots flying very close and big maneuvers. That makes difficult
for the judge to appreciate the geometry. I have been
downgrading depending on the severity but never seen specifics in
the rule book (besides going pass 60 degrees in severe
cases). Just to hear opinions. </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente "Vince" Bortone </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Jerry Stebbins"
<JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net> <BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dean, I am going to dig it out and look,
but i believe the Full Scale judging book does put the onus on the
pilot.I'll check on it. I know some info I got from them a while ago
read that way.It was part of their "Judging Evaluation"
process.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'll look and see if I kept
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Anywho I totally agree that if the pilot
wants the best scores -over time- he needs to show his skill not throw
it at you. Your analogy to "Craftsmanship" is really
appropiate!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=d.pappas@kodeos.com href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">Dean
Pappas</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 01, 2007
9:02 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging Question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Hi
Fred,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>There is
another whole aspect to the judging world!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>We always
discuss WHAT to judge ... and we should.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>HOW to judge
gets stickier, and I have seen, over the years, a handful of pilots
score</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>remarkably well
by utilizing flying styles that rush both maneuver elements and the
judges.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>We always tend
to blame ourselves if we can't see what is supposed to be there,
rather than blaming others.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>That is
civilized behavior: people who start out by assuming the
opposite are called sociopaths.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Well, a good
judge is maybe just a little bit sociopathic. (temporary
insanity?)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Let me go back
to Matt K.'s statement of two or so days ago, when
he</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>said
that the onus is on the pilot to clearly demonstrate the good
stuff to the judge,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>and not on the
judge to pick out the good stuff in the midst of a poor
presentation.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>You won't find
this explicitly in any rule book, but common sense tells
us that a real workman</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>proudly
displays his good work so that it can best be admired, rather than
hiding it in the middle of confusion.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>If you were
judging a debate, would you have to give someone the benefit of
the doubt because they mumbled? </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Heck
NO!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>The mumbler
gets downgraded.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Rushing is
like mumbling ...come to think of it it isn't like mumbling,
it <EM>is</EM> aero-mumbling.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Off my
soapbox,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT
face=Arial>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Fred Huber<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:46
PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I caught all kinds of flack at judging
training session for downgrading because a VERY well known pilit
did a blazing fast 4-point....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>All other judge trainees said 10... I said 0...
the points weren't full stops.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=gene.maurice@sgmservice.com
href="mailto:gene.maurice@sgmservice.com">Gene Maurice</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=randy10926@comtekmail.com
href="mailto:randy10926@comtekmail.com">randy10926@comtekmail.com</A>
; <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing
List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February
28, 2007 1:38 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If the
points are so fast as to make it indiscernible what angle they
occurred at, then I would tend to doubt whether the point
occurred at all. Score 0. It is the pilot’s responsibility to
present the maneuver in such a manner to demonstrate that the
maneuver has in fact been done according to the rules. I
sincerely doubt that a 4 point can be done in 1.25 seconds with
defined stops in the roll every 90 degrees. But it remains that
if, as a judge, you cannot clearly see the relevant elements of
any maneuver being performed, then you should assume that IT HAS
NOT been performed. The elements must be demonstrated not
assumed. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Don
Ramsey, can you clarify?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Gene
Maurice<BR>gene.maurice@sgmservice.com<BR><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Plano</st1:City>, <st1:State
w:st="on">TX</st1:State></st1:place><BR>AMA 3408, NSRCA
877</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
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align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Glenn
Hatfield<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discuss list
<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Question</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ok time to get back
to our favorite list questions.<BR><BR>This comes from a real
life judging problem. The question is about the 4-point
roll. This what I am seeing. A 4 point roll that
takes less than 1.25 second to complete. You can see 4
very short pauses. The manever appears to be
centered. I see no change in height or coming in or
out. It appears to be between 150M and 175M. But the
pauses are so short that I cannot really tell if the rolls
between pauses are 90 degrees. So I cannot see what the 1
point per 15 degree down grade should be.<BR><BR><BR>What would
you
do?<BR><BR><BR>Randy<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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