<html><body>
<DIV>Hi Dean,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree 100%. Actually the 60 degree box-top violation downgrade is directly proportional to the paint I feel in my neck.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas@kodeos.com> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi Vince,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I find hiding the overall geometry by flying too large for the closeness to be as just as objectionable (or maybe moreso) as flying too far out to see the details like wingtip wiggles etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Usually, the pilot who does this gives me plenty of 60 degree box-top violations to work with. In addition, they tend to fly poor overall geometries as well, because they can't see them!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The lemming-march to fly painfully close has dominated more than just a few nationals over the years and with the help of hidsight I can now point and laugh. At the time it was frustrating ...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Comments anybody else?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>vicenterc@comcast.net<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 02, 2007 11:17 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Cc:</B> Jerry Stebbins<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Talking about "Craftsmanship". Sometimes, I have seen some pilots flying very close and big maneuvers. That makes difficult for the judge to appreciate the geometry. I have been downgrading depending on the severity but never seen specifics in the rule book (besides going pass 60 degrees in severe cases). Just to hear opinions. </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente "Vince" Bortone </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Jerry Stebbins" <JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3059" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE>v\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
o\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
w\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
.shape {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
</STYLE>
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="State"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"></o:SmartTagType><o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"></o:SmartTagType>
<STYLE>st1\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui)
}
</STYLE>
<STYLE>@font-face {
font-family: Tahoma;
}
@page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; }
P.MsoNormal {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"
}
LI.MsoNormal {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"
}
DIV.MsoNormal {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"
}
A:link {
COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline
}
SPAN.MsoHyperlink {
COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline
}
A:visited {
COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline
}
SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {
COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline
}
P {
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto
}
SPAN.EmailStyle17 {
COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply
}
DIV.Section1 {
page: Section1
}
</STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dean, I am going to dig it out and look, but i believe the Full Scale judging book does put the onus on the pilot.I'll check on it. I know some info I got from them a while ago read that way.It was part of their "Judging Evaluation" process.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'll look and see if I kept it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Anywho I totally agree that if the pilot wants the best scores -over time- he needs to show his skill not throw it at you. Your analogy to "Craftsmanship" is really appropiate!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=d.pappas@kodeos.com href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">Dean Pappas</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:02 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Hi Fred,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>There is another whole aspect to the judging world!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>We always discuss WHAT to judge ... and we should.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>HOW to judge gets stickier, and I have seen, over the years, a handful of pilots score</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>remarkably well by utilizing flying styles that rush both maneuver elements and the judges.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>We always tend to blame ourselves if we can't see what is supposed to be there, rather than blaming others.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>That is civilized behavior: people who start out by assuming the opposite are called sociopaths.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Well, a good judge is maybe just a little bit sociopathic. (temporary insanity?)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Let me go back to Matt K.'s statement of two or so days ago, when he</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>said that the onus is on the pilot to clearly demonstrate the good stuff to the judge,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>and not on the judge to pick out the good stuff in the midst of a poor presentation.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>You won't find this explicitly in any rule book, but common sense tells us that a real workman</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>proudly displays his good work so that it can best be admired, rather than hiding it in the middle of confusion.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>If you were judging a debate, would you have to give someone the benefit of the doubt because they mumbled? </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Heck NO!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>The mumbler gets downgraded.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Rushing is like mumbling ...come to think of it it isn't like mumbling, it <EM>is</EM> aero-mumbling.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Off my soapbox,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Fred Huber<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:46 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I caught all kinds of flack at judging training session for downgrading because a VERY well known pilit did a blazing fast 4-point....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>All other judge trainees said 10... I said 0... the points weren't full stops.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=gene.maurice@sgmservice.com href="mailto:gene.maurice@sgmservice.com">Gene Maurice</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=randy10926@comtekmail.com href="mailto:randy10926@comtekmail.com">randy10926@comtekmail.com</A> ; <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 28, 2007 1:38 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If the points are so fast as to make it indiscernible what angle they occurred at, then I would tend to doubt whether the point occurred at all. Score 0. It is the pilot’s responsibility to present the maneuver in such a manner to demonstrate that the maneuver has in fact been done according to the rules. I sincerely doubt that a 4 point can be done in 1.25 seconds with defined stops in the roll every 90 degrees. But it remains that if, as a judge, you cannot clearly see the relevant elements of any maneuver being performed, then you should assume that IT HAS NOT been performed. The elements must be demonstrated not assumed. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Don Ramsey, can you clarify?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Gene Maurice<BR>gene.maurice@sgmservice.com<BR><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Plano</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">TX</st1:State></st1:place><BR>AMA 3408, NSRCA 877</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Glenn Hatfield<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discuss list <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ok time to get back to our favorite list questions.<BR><BR>This comes from a real life judging problem. The question is about the 4-point roll. This what I am seeing. A 4 point roll that takes less than 1.25 second to complete. You can see 4 very short pauses. The manever appears to be centered. I see no change in height or coming in or out. It appears to be between 150M and 175M. But the pauses are so short that I cannot really tell if the rolls between pauses are 90 degrees. So I cannot see what the 1 point per 15 degree down grade should be.<BR><BR><BR>What would you do?<BR><BR><BR>Randy<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/705 - Release Date: 2/27/2007 3:24 PM<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></body></html>