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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wow.!!!. What an ABSOLUTE TRUTH so
easily put. Now if we could only get more of the NSRCA leaders to see the light
finally. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Del</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=bob@toprudder.com href="mailto:bob@toprudder.com">Bob Richards</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 05, 2007 9:09
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small
Models ... good for thefutureofthePattern Event?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>You know, I had much better luck recruiting new pattern flyers when I was
actively flying my Cap 21 in pattern.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bob R.</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I><A
href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net">ronlock@comcast.net</A></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV>Yep, part of reason for my Tiger II sport planes is to show </DIV>
<DIV>"precision-ish" aerobatics to potential new pattern pilots.</DIV>
<DIV>That may have helped with local recruiting.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But....The nearby 2 meter tends to contradict the message that
the</DIV>
<DIV>new guys don't need it. It's presence keeps saying
that a 2 meter is </DIV>
<DIV>the logical result of starting down the pattern road.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Later, Ron Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Fred Huber"
<fhhuber@clearwire.net> <BR><BR>> To entice begiiners into
pattern, the question is... "What do I need to <BR>> compete at
Sportsman level"... and for Sportsman, the .60 to .90 size planes <BR>>
are just fine. I've seen a U-Can-Do 3D 60 beat a 2 meter plane... At
<BR>> Sportsman, I'd expect a 60 size "Ultra Stick" to do very well.
<BR>> <BR>> You can explain the difference in aircraft performance
requirements with <BR>> increasing competiton levels, while standing
beside that top end 2-meter <BR>> plane with 3KW of brushless power (or
a 1.60 2-stroke... or even the <BR>> turbine) in the nose, and not look
like you're making things up by::: <BR>> breaking out a sport model and
taking it through the Sportsman sequence to <BR>> demonstrate. <BR>>
<BR>> A sport model being contro! lled by a Pattern flyer looks like a
different <BR>> model than the same plane being flown by an average
"sunday flyer". The <BR>> stick skills show, no matter what the pilot
is flying. <BR>> <BR>> Actually.. if the pilot's stick skills need
work... a sport model can look <BR>> smoother than the 2-meter Pattern
design. My .90 size (e-powered) pattern <BR>> design shows me EVERY
mistake I make. My sport models hide a lot. I <BR>> "twitch" the
pattern plane responds NOW. The sport plane seems to "think <BR>> about
it" for a bit. <BR>> <BR>> ************** <BR>> <BR>> I still
think the Sportsman sequence needs to be CAREFULLY kept such that a
<BR>> .60 size "Ugly stick" or equivilent with a .60 2-stroke in the
nose can do <BR>> all maneuvers easilly. That vertical up-line in the
new sequence pushes the <BR>> edge of what should be in Sportsman...
(the .60 size Ugly Stick needs a .91 <BR>> 4-stroke in the nose with
that maneuver in the se! quence. .. The .61 2-stroke <BR>> runs out of
steam on the way up.) <BR>> <BR>> You want a good Sportsman
sequence... have a Sportsman draw it up... not a <BR>> Masters or FAI
competitor. <BR>> <BR>> Sportsman is to get the beginners to
competition used to flying in front of <BR>> judges. Sportsman used to
be called "Novice"..... and that helped keep the <BR>> purpose of the
class visible. Its there to help new competitors learn to <BR>> handle
the stress of flying for score and to build basic skills needed for
<BR>> higher level competition.... Not to test the vertical performance
of the <BR>> aircraft. <BR>> <BR>> Sportsman, in my opinion could
withstand having a permanantly fixed <BR>> sequence. (such as the one
that just got superceeded, because I think the <BR>> new one demands
too much out of the aircraft) When a Sportsman competitor <BR>> gets
bored flying that same sequence every contest... its probably time to
<BR>> move up! . <BR>& gt; <BR>> FHH <BR>> <BR>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>> From: "Ed Miller"
<EDBON85@CHARTER.NET><BR>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> Sent: Thursday, January 04,
2007 2:32 PM <BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ...
good for <BR>> thefutureofthePattern Event? <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
>I think the fact there are a slew of 60 to 90 sized pattern arfs
readily <BR>> > available at a sub $300 price tag will motivate
newbies more than the <BR>> > cumbersome size issue. If or when a
newbie gets hooked, the size issue, <BR>> > or <BR>> > lack
there of, then is an added benefit. Problem is and we've all been <BR>>
> there is the question "what do I need to compete with". There you
stand <BR>> > touting all the good 60 to 90 size planes out there
while trying to hide <BR>> > your guppy 2M plane of the
week............ <BR>> > Ed M. <BR>> > ----- Origina! l Messa
ge ----- <BR>> > From: "Dean Pappas" <D.PAPPAS@KODEOS.COM><BR>>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:21 PM <BR>> > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the <BR>> >
futureofthePattern Event? <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >>
Thanks Jay, <BR>> >> That's why I posted to the list. Between the
whole lot of us, we can get <BR>> >> some coverage. <BR>>
>> Maybe it begs the issue of how to find newbies in the first place
( silly <BR>> >> grin ) but you might start at the regular club
meeting/field. <BR>> >> Aren't there guys who watch and comment
on your Pattern stuff, but don't <BR>> >> get into the event, in
your local club? <BR>> >> Ask them if they think the entry
barrier would change for them or someone <BR>> >> like them. They
may be closer to that prospective newbie than you ar! e. <BR>> >>
They may come back and say that the practice discipline is why they will
<BR>> >> never do it, <BR>> >> and others may come back
and say, "Wow smaller/cheaper planes that fit in <BR>> >> my car
and my apartmenmt workshop! I'm in!" <BR>> >> I doubt you'll get
such clear feedback, but you might get something. <BR>> >> later,
<BR>> >> Dean <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>>
>> Dean Pappas <BR>> >> Sr. Design Engineer <BR>>
>> Kodeos Communications <BR>> >> 111 Corporate Blvd.
<BR>> >> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 <BR>> >> (908)
222-7817 phone <BR>> >> (908) 222-2392 fax <BR>> >>
d.pappas@kodeos.com <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >>
-----Original Message----- <BR>> >> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> >>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jay <BR>>
! >> ; Marshall <BR>> >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007
1:58 PM <BR>> >> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <BR>> >>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future
<BR>> >> ofthePattern Event? <BR>> >> <BR>> >>
<BR>> >> Dean, you bring up a very good point. Most of us are
seeped in the 2m <BR>> >> venue. <BR>> >> We should
really be talking to prospective new flyers. How do we do that? <BR>>
>> <BR>> >> -----Original Message----- <BR>> >>
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> >>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dean
<BR>> >> Pappas <BR>> >> Sent: Thursday, January 04,
2007 1:09 PM <BR>> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List <BR>> >>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future of
<BR>> >> thePattern Event? <BR>> >> <BR>> >> Hi
Anthon! y, <BR>> >> Hi All, <BR>> >> Forget the
implementational details for now. Stop trying to Engineer it, <BR>>
>> we <BR>> >> are doing Marketting. <BR>> >> If
it helps to get in the right frame of mind, take a few stiff drinks
<BR>> >> and <BR>> >> bang your head on the workbench
about ten times. <BR>> >> If we decide that it's worthwhile, then
there are a zillion ways to make <BR>> >> the <BR>> >>
transition and to also grandfather existing planes for several years.
<BR>> >> That's not the issue, at least not for now. <BR>>
>> <BR>> >> Changing the shape of the event: just for
"something to do" would be an <BR>> >> awful waste of energy and
needless turmoil. <BR>> >> We all dislike wasted energy, and I
hope that we all agree that needless <BR>> >> turmoil is to be
avoided. <BR>> >> I really want to focus on the basic question.
Will ! making Pattern ships <BR>> >> smaller lead to increased
future participation in the event? <BR>> >> If the answer isn't
YES, then the grief probably ain't worth it. <BR>> >> <BR>>
>> So far, I am hearing a mixed bag, and a whole lot of talk about
the <BR>> >> compromises we have all made when buying a vehicle.
<BR>> >> I am there with you. (stow 'n go Grand caravan ... love
it) <BR>> >> But the choir is already saved, and you all already
fly Pattern. <BR>> >> Please go pester the newbies and the folks
that you think are potential <BR>> >> Pattern newbies. <BR>>
>> Will this make a difference as to whether they take the plunge?
<BR>> >> Maybe the answer is that future participation won't be
improved. <BR>> >> <BR>> >> After we figure out whether
future participation will or will not be <BR>> >> helped,
<BR>> >> then we can figure out what those of us! alread y in the
event would like. <BR>> >> That is an entirely separate question.
<BR>> >> <BR>> >> thanks for the help, <BR>> >>
Dean <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>>
>> Dean Pappas <BR>> >> Sr. Design Engineer <BR>>
>> Kodeos Communications <BR>> >> 111 Corporate Blvd.
<BR>> >> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 <BR>> >> (908)
222-7817 phone <BR>> >> (908) 222-2392 fax <BR>> >>
d.pappas@kodeos.com <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >>
-----Original Message----- <BR>> >> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> >>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Anthony
<BR>> >> Romano <BR>> >> Sent: Thursday, January 04,
2007 11:31 AM <BR>> >> To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
<BR>> >> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models bonus!?
<BR>> >> <BR>&! gt; > ;> <BR>> >> Ok I will
try it again. What about a 10 % score bonus for a 1.7m model? <BR>>
>> 1.5m <BR>> >> <BR>> >> 20%? Encourage the
newbie or the guy on a budget and take away the <BR>> >>
perceived <BR>> >> <BR>> >> advantage without causing
obsolescence on current equipment. <BR>> >> Remember the biplane
bonus at the TOC? Wasn't there a size bonus as well <BR>> >>
waaayyy back? <BR>> >> <BR>> >> Maybe it needs to be
limited to sportsman or intermediate maybe not. <BR>> >> <BR>>
>> Anthony <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>>
>>>From: "Ed Miller" <EDBON85@CHARTER.NET><BR>>
>>>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >>>To: "NSRCA Mailing
List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >>>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models <BR>> >>>Date: Thu, 4 Jan
2007! 08:12: 11 -0500 <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>Yes, that
is known as the BPA, Ballistic Pattern Association. So soon <BR>>
>>>there <BR>> >>>will be 3 pattern venues to split
the already dwindling pattern base :). <BR>> >>>Ed M. <BR>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- <BR>> >>>From: "Earl
Haury" <EHAURY@HOUSTON.RR.COM><BR>> >>>To: "NSRCA Mailing
List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >>>Sent:
Thursday, January 04, 2007 6:40 AM <BR>> >>>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models <BR>> >>> <BR>>
>>> <BR>> >>>Interesting indeed - a local club is
considering holding a "ole fashion" <BR>> >>>pattern contest
this fall. The plan is to fly pre-turnaround pattern. Not <BR>>
>>>sure exactly what the rules will be - but not SPA, as the
intent is to <BR>> >>>allow <BR>> >>>'70's - '80's
airplanes! with p iped engines & retracts (one member <BR>>
>>>mentioned <BR>> >>>a Brushfire with piped Jett
90). <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>I'm very comfortable with
pattern as it is - however, there is a gap <BR>> >>>between
<BR>> >>>current pattern and SPA that many seem interested in.
<BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>Earl <BR>> >>>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>> >>> From: Koenig, Tom
<BR>> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <BR>> >>> Sent:
Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:16 PM <BR>> >>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models <BR>> >>> <BR>>
>>> <BR>> >>> Guys-there are many of us that
reminisce about the 'simpler' days of <BR>> >>> the <BR>>
>>>60 size models, even down here! <BR>> >>> <BR>>
>>> I mentioned recently to some locals that I may hold a comp
similar to <BR!>> & gt;>>your <BR>> >>>SPA stuff.
I considered just allowing 60 size models as a max, never mind <BR>>
>>>all the vintage rules etc.....I was SWAMPED with interest.
There were all <BR>> >>>sorts of ex pattern pilots ready to
show up. I think I'd have had 40 -50 <BR>> >>>possible
entries!!! <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> Not trying to stir
things up-but it is interesting nonetheless. <BR>> >>>
<BR>> >>> Tom <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>
-----Original Message----- <BR>> >>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>
>>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
Ron <BR>> >>>Lockhart <BR>> >>> Sent: Thursday, 4
January 2007 11:31 AM <BR>> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
<BR>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models
<BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >&g! t;>
Yea, smaller has a number of advantages. <BR>> >>> A reduction
in money, time, hassle factor, etc., of models is a <BR>>
>>>thought <BR>> >>>toward increased participation.
<BR>> >>> (Yea, I know the established pilots, and new pilots,
are allowed to <BR>> >>>fly <BR>> >>>smaller
models right now. But we have a <BR>> >>> lot of history that
shows Dean's comment "Given that everyone will <BR>> >>>build
or buy up to the maximum size limit" is true. <BR>> >>> How
does that Dixie thing go?....<G> <BR>> >>> <BR>>
>>> Ron Lockhart <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>> >>> From: Dean Pappas
<BR>> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <BR>> >>> Sent:
Wednesday, January 03, 2007 4:51 PM <BR>> >>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace <BR>> >>> <BR>> >&g!
t;> <BR>> >>> Hi John, <BR>> >>> A year or so
ago, I puit together an Excelleron 90 for a review <BR>> >>>
and <BR>> >>>eventual sale to a newbie. <BR>> >>>
Boy! Was it nice to drop a plane into the minivan in one piece! <BR>>
>>> It was almost as good as when a Phoenix 8 would fit into the
back <BR>> >>> of <BR>> >> <BR>> >>>a
<BR>> >>>hatchback Camaro in one piece. <BR>> >>>
<BR>> >>> Given that everyone will build or buy up to the
maximum size <BR>> >>> limit, <BR>> >>> is there a
good enough reason to push on the rules bodies to <BR>>
>>>legislate <BR>> >>>Pattern plane sizes back down?
<BR>> >>> How about 1.6 or 1.7 meters square? <BR>>
>>> Will this affect cost and complexity enough to have a
beneficial <BR>> >>>effect on participation? <BR>>
>&g! t;> Or am I just whistling Dixie? <BR>> >>>
<BR>> >>> later, <BR>> >>> Dean <BR>>
>>> Dean Pappas <BR>> >>> Sr. Design Engineer
<BR>> >>> Kodeos Communications <BR>> >>> 111
Corporate Blvd. <BR>> >>> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080
<BR>> >>> (908) 222-7817 phone <BR>> >>> (908)
222-2392 fax <BR>> >>> d.pappas@kodeos.com <BR>>
>>> <BR>> >>> -----Original Message----- <BR>>
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>
>>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
John <BR>> >>>Ferrell <BR>> >>> Sent: Wednesday,
January 03, 2007 3:07 PM <BR>> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
<BR>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace
<BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> There
seems to be a growing trend toward sm! aller a irplanes among <BR>>
>>> a <BR>> >>>lot of folks. I sure am enjoying the
90 size Boxer I bought from Ed <BR>> >>>Miller <BR>>
>>>last summer. Less hassle to transport, assemble and fly. That
means I can <BR>> >>>fly more! <BR>> >>> <BR>>
>>> John Ferrell W8CCW <BR>> >>> "My Competition is
not my enemy" <BR>> >>> http://DixieNC.US <BR>>
>>> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> <BR>>
>>> <BR>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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