<html><body>
<DIV>Yep, part of reason for my Tiger II sport planes is to show </DIV>
<DIV>"precision-ish" aerobatics to potential new pattern pilots.</DIV>
<DIV>That may have helped with local recruiting.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But....The nearby 2 meter tends to contradict the message that the</DIV>
<DIV>new guys don't need it. It's presence keeps saying that a 2 meter is </DIV>
<DIV>the logical result of starting down the pattern road.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Later, Ron Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber@clearwire.net> <BR><BR>> To entice begiiners into pattern, the question is... "What do I need to <BR>> compete at Sportsman level"... and for Sportsman, the .60 to .90 size planes <BR>> are just fine. I've seen a U-Can-Do 3D 60 beat a 2 meter plane... At <BR>> Sportsman, I'd expect a 60 size "Ultra Stick" to do very well. <BR>> <BR>> You can explain the difference in aircraft performance requirements with <BR>> increasing competiton levels, while standing beside that top end 2-meter <BR>> plane with 3KW of brushless power (or a 1.60 2-stroke... or even the <BR>> turbine) in the nose, and not look like you're making things up by::: <BR>> breaking out a sport model and taking it through the Sportsman sequence to <BR>> demonstrate. <BR>> <BR>> A sport model being controlled by
a Pattern flyer looks like a different <BR>> model than the same plane being flown by an average "sunday flyer". The <BR>> stick skills show, no matter what the pilot is flying. <BR>> <BR>> Actually.. if the pilot's stick skills need work... a sport model can look <BR>> smoother than the 2-meter Pattern design. My .90 size (e-powered) pattern <BR>> design shows me EVERY mistake I make. My sport models hide a lot. I <BR>> "twitch" the pattern plane responds NOW. The sport plane seems to "think <BR>> about it" for a bit. <BR>> <BR>> ************** <BR>> <BR>> I still think the Sportsman sequence needs to be CAREFULLY kept such that a <BR>> .60 size "Ugly stick" or equivilent with a .60 2-stroke in the nose can do <BR>> all maneuvers easilly. That vertical up-line in the new sequence pushes the <BR>> edge of what should be in Sportsman... (the .60 size Ugly Stick needs a .91 <BR>> 4-stroke in the nose with that maneuver in the sequence.
.. The .61 2-stroke <BR>> runs out of steam on the way up.) <BR>> <BR>> You want a good Sportsman sequence... have a Sportsman draw it up... not a <BR>> Masters or FAI competitor. <BR>> <BR>> Sportsman is to get the beginners to competition used to flying in front of <BR>> judges. Sportsman used to be called "Novice"..... and that helped keep the <BR>> purpose of the class visible. Its there to help new competitors learn to <BR>> handle the stress of flying for score and to build basic skills needed for <BR>> higher level competition.... Not to test the vertical performance of the <BR>> aircraft. <BR>> <BR>> Sportsman, in my opinion could withstand having a permanantly fixed <BR>> sequence. (such as the one that just got superceeded, because I think the <BR>> new one demands too much out of the aircraft) When a Sportsman competitor <BR>> gets bored flying that same sequence every contest... its probably time to <BR>> move up. <BR>&
gt; <BR>> FHH <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> From: "Ed Miller" <EDBON85@CHARTER.NET><BR>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:32 PM <BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for <BR>> thefutureofthePattern Event? <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> >I think the fact there are a slew of 60 to 90 sized pattern arfs readily <BR>> > available at a sub $300 price tag will motivate newbies more than the <BR>> > cumbersome size issue. If or when a newbie gets hooked, the size issue, <BR>> > or <BR>> > lack there of, then is an added benefit. Problem is and we've all been <BR>> > there is the question "what do I need to compete with". There you stand <BR>> > touting all the good 60 to 90 size planes out there while trying to hide <BR>> > your guppy 2M plane of the week............ <BR>> > Ed M. <BR>> > ----- Original Messa
ge ----- <BR>> > From: "Dean Pappas" <D.PAPPAS@KODEOS.COM><BR>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 2:21 PM <BR>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the <BR>> > futureofthePattern Event? <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >> Thanks Jay, <BR>> >> That's why I posted to the list. Between the whole lot of us, we can get <BR>> >> some coverage. <BR>> >> Maybe it begs the issue of how to find newbies in the first place ( silly <BR>> >> grin ) but you might start at the regular club meeting/field. <BR>> >> Aren't there guys who watch and comment on your Pattern stuff, but don't <BR>> >> get into the event, in your local club? <BR>> >> Ask them if they think the entry barrier would change for them or someone <BR>> >> like them. They may be closer to that prospective newbie than you are. <BR>
> >> They may come back and say that the practice discipline is why they will <BR>> >> never do it, <BR>> >> and others may come back and say, "Wow smaller/cheaper planes that fit in <BR>> >> my car and my apartmenmt workshop! I'm in!" <BR>> >> I doubt you'll get such clear feedback, but you might get something. <BR>> >> later, <BR>> >> Dean <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> Dean Pappas <BR>> >> Sr. Design Engineer <BR>> >> Kodeos Communications <BR>> >> 111 Corporate Blvd. <BR>> >> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 <BR>> >> (908) 222-7817 phone <BR>> >> (908) 222-2392 fax <BR>> >> d.pappas@kodeos.com <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> -----Original Message----- <BR>> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jay <BR>> >>
; Marshall <BR>> >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:58 PM <BR>> >> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List' <BR>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future <BR>> >> ofthePattern Event? <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> Dean, you bring up a very good point. Most of us are seeped in the 2m <BR>> >> venue. <BR>> >> We should really be talking to prospective new flyers. How do we do that? <BR>> >> <BR>> >> -----Original Message----- <BR>> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dean <BR>> >> Pappas <BR>> >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 1:09 PM <BR>> >> To: NSRCA Mailing List <BR>> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models ... good for the future of <BR>> >> thePattern Event? <BR>> >> <BR>> >> Hi Anthony, <BR>
> >> Hi All, <BR>> >> Forget the implementational details for now. Stop trying to Engineer it, <BR>> >> we <BR>> >> are doing Marketting. <BR>> >> If it helps to get in the right frame of mind, take a few stiff drinks <BR>> >> and <BR>> >> bang your head on the workbench about ten times. <BR>> >> If we decide that it's worthwhile, then there are a zillion ways to make <BR>> >> the <BR>> >> transition and to also grandfather existing planes for several years. <BR>> >> That's not the issue, at least not for now. <BR>> >> <BR>> >> Changing the shape of the event: just for "something to do" would be an <BR>> >> awful waste of energy and needless turmoil. <BR>> >> We all dislike wasted energy, and I hope that we all agree that needless <BR>> >> turmoil is to be avoided. <BR>> >> I really want to focus on the basic question. Will making
Pattern ships <BR>> >> smaller lead to increased future participation in the event? <BR>> >> If the answer isn't YES, then the grief probably ain't worth it. <BR>> >> <BR>> >> So far, I am hearing a mixed bag, and a whole lot of talk about the <BR>> >> compromises we have all made when buying a vehicle. <BR>> >> I am there with you. (stow 'n go Grand caravan ... love it) <BR>> >> But the choir is already saved, and you all already fly Pattern. <BR>> >> Please go pester the newbies and the folks that you think are potential <BR>> >> Pattern newbies. <BR>> >> Will this make a difference as to whether they take the plunge? <BR>> >> Maybe the answer is that future participation won't be improved. <BR>> >> <BR>> >> After we figure out whether future participation will or will not be <BR>> >> helped, <BR>> >> then we can figure out what those of us alread
y in the event would like. <BR>> >> That is an entirely separate question. <BR>> >> <BR>> >> thanks for the help, <BR>> >> Dean <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> Dean Pappas <BR>> >> Sr. Design Engineer <BR>> >> Kodeos Communications <BR>> >> 111 Corporate Blvd. <BR>> >> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 <BR>> >> (908) 222-7817 phone <BR>> >> (908) 222-2392 fax <BR>> >> d.pappas@kodeos.com <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> -----Original Message----- <BR>> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Anthony <BR>> >> Romano <BR>> >> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:31 AM <BR>> >> To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> >> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Small Models bonus!? <BR>> >> <BR>> >
;> <BR>> >> Ok I will try it again. What about a 10 % score bonus for a 1.7m model? <BR>> >> 1.5m <BR>> >> <BR>> >> 20%? Encourage the newbie or the guy on a budget and take away the <BR>> >> perceived <BR>> >> <BR>> >> advantage without causing obsolescence on current equipment. <BR>> >> Remember the biplane bonus at the TOC? Wasn't there a size bonus as well <BR>> >> waaayyy back? <BR>> >> <BR>> >> Maybe it needs to be limited to sportsman or intermediate maybe not. <BR>> >> <BR>> >> Anthony <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >>>From: "Ed Miller" <EDBON85@CHARTER.NET><BR>> >>>Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >>>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models <BR>> >>>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 08:12:
11 -0500 <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>Yes, that is known as the BPA, Ballistic Pattern Association. So soon <BR>> >>>there <BR>> >>>will be 3 pattern venues to split the already dwindling pattern base :). <BR>> >>>Ed M. <BR>> >>>----- Original Message ----- <BR>> >>>From: "Earl Haury" <EHAURY@HOUSTON.RR.COM><BR>> >>>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >>>Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 6:40 AM <BR>> >>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>Interesting indeed - a local club is considering holding a "ole fashion" <BR>> >>>pattern contest this fall. The plan is to fly pre-turnaround pattern. Not <BR>> >>>sure exactly what the rules will be - but not SPA, as the intent is to <BR>> >>>allow <BR>> >>>'70's - '80's airplanes with p
iped engines & retracts (one member <BR>> >>>mentioned <BR>> >>>a Brushfire with piped Jett 90). <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>I'm very comfortable with pattern as it is - however, there is a gap <BR>> >>>between <BR>> >>>current pattern and SPA that many seem interested in. <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>Earl <BR>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> >>> From: Koenig, Tom <BR>> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <BR>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:16 PM <BR>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> Guys-there are many of us that reminisce about the 'simpler' days of <BR>> >>> the <BR>> >>>60 size models, even down here! <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> I mentioned recently to some locals that I may hold a comp similar to <BR>> &
gt;>>your <BR>> >>>SPA stuff. I considered just allowing 60 size models as a max, never mind <BR>> >>>all the vintage rules etc.....I was SWAMPED with interest. There were all <BR>> >>>sorts of ex pattern pilots ready to show up. I think I'd have had 40 -50 <BR>> >>>possible entries!!! <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> Not trying to stir things up-but it is interesting nonetheless. <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> Tom <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> -----Original Message----- <BR>> >>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> >>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ron <BR>> >>>Lockhart <BR>> >>> Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:31 AM <BR>> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <BR>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Smaller Models <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>
Yea, smaller has a number of advantages. <BR>> >>> A reduction in money, time, hassle factor, etc., of models is a <BR>> >>>thought <BR>> >>>toward increased participation. <BR>> >>> (Yea, I know the established pilots, and new pilots, are allowed to <BR>> >>>fly <BR>> >>>smaller models right now. But we have a <BR>> >>> lot of history that shows Dean's comment "Given that everyone will <BR>> >>>build or buy up to the maximum size limit" is true. <BR>> >>> How does that Dixie thing go?....<G> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> Ron Lockhart <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> >>> From: Dean Pappas <BR>> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <BR>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 4:51 PM <BR>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>
<BR>> >>> Hi John, <BR>> >>> A year or so ago, I puit together an Excelleron 90 for a review <BR>> >>> and <BR>> >>>eventual sale to a newbie. <BR>> >>> Boy! Was it nice to drop a plane into the minivan in one piece! <BR>> >>> It was almost as good as when a Phoenix 8 would fit into the back <BR>> >>> of <BR>> >> <BR>> >>>a <BR>> >>>hatchback Camaro in one piece. <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> Given that everyone will build or buy up to the maximum size <BR>> >>> limit, <BR>> >>> is there a good enough reason to push on the rules bodies to <BR>> >>>legislate <BR>> >>>Pattern plane sizes back down? <BR>> >>> How about 1.6 or 1.7 meters square? <BR>> >>> Will this affect cost and complexity enough to have a beneficial <BR>> >>>effect on participation? <BR>> >>>
Or am I just whistling Dixie? <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> later, <BR>> >>> Dean <BR>> >>> Dean Pappas <BR>> >>> Sr. Design Engineer <BR>> >>> Kodeos Communications <BR>> >>> 111 Corporate Blvd. <BR>> >>> South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 <BR>> >>> (908) 222-7817 phone <BR>> >>> (908) 222-2392 fax <BR>> >>> d.pappas@kodeos.com <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> -----Original Message----- <BR>> >>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> >>>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John <BR>> >>>Ferrell <BR>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 3:07 PM <BR>> >>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <BR>> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Header Brace <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> There seems to be a growing trend toward smaller a
irplanes among <BR>> >>> a <BR>> >>>lot of folks. I sure am enjoying the 90 size Boxer I bought from Ed <BR>> >>>Miller <BR>> >>>last summer. Less hassle to transport, assemble and fly. That means I can <BR>> >>>fly more! <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> John Ferrell W8CCW <BR>> >>> "My Competition is not my enemy" <BR>> >>> http://DixieNC.US <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>> _______________________________________________ <BR>> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR>> >>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <BR>> >>> <BR>> >>>*****************************
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