<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Yeah Matt,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I thought the same, but this execution mirrors exactly the
rule book directive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>G.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rcmaster199@aol.com
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 15, 2006 3:14
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Square
Eight</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So you completed 7/8ths of a Sq Hor 8. Congrats (VBG)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Matt </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV> <BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">geobet@gis.net</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Sent:
Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:51 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Square
Eight<BR><BR>
<STYLE>.AOLPlainTextBody {
FONT-SIZE: 12px; MARGIN: 0px; COLOR: #000; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff
}
.AOLPlainTextBody PRE {
FONT-SIZE: 9pt
}
.AOLInlineAttachment {
MARGIN: 10px
}
.AOLAttachmentHeader {
BORDER-RIGHT: #7da8d4 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #7da8d4 1px solid; BACKGROUND: #f9f9f9; FONT: 11px arial; BORDER-LEFT: #7da8d4 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #7da8d4 1px solid
}
.AOLAttachmentHeader .Title {
PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; BACKGROUND: #b5ddfa; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; FONT: 11px arial; PADDING-TOP: 3px
}
.AOLAttachmentHeader .FieldLabel {
PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; PADDING-LEFT: 9px; BACKGROUND: #f9f9f9; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1px; FONT: 11px arial; COLOR: #000000; PADDING-TOP: 1px
}
.AOLAttachmentHeader .FieldValue {
BACKGROUND: #f9f9f9; FONT: 11px arial; COLOR: #000000
}
.AOLAttachmentHeader A {
COLOR: #2864b4; TEXT-DECORATION: none
}
.AOLImage A {
COLOR: #2864b4; TEXT-DECORATION: none
}
.AOLAttachmentHeader A:hover {
COLOR: #2864b4; TEXT-DECORATION: underline
}
.AOLImage A:hover {
COLOR: #2864b4; TEXT-DECORATION: underline
}
BODY {
BORDER-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; BORDER-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: "Verdana"; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white
}
P {
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}
IMG.managedImg {
WIDTH: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px
}
IMG.placeholder {
BORDER-RIGHT: #dadad6 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #dadad6 1px solid; BACKGROUND: #f4f4f4 no-repeat center center; BORDER-LEFT: #dadad6 1px solid; WIDTH: 275px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #dadad6 1px solid; HEIGHT: 206px
}
</STYLE>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_7d86936d-2727-4443-8829-a6da6b3b0242>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I sent this e-mail yesterday morning and it never
came back to me so I thought that it might not have made it to the list, so if
this is a re-submission my apologies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><<<<In light of the clarification
supplied by Richard Lindburgh and the fact that we do not have a specific
descriptor for the current maneuver ( at least not that I have been able
to find) I decided to try to write one for myself. Here it is as I see it, and
feel free to make the necessary corrections, additions, deletions, e.t.c.
where I am wrong.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>DESCRIPTOR:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>HORIZONTAL SQUARE EIGHT.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Model flies past center a distance equal to the
anticipated size of the first loop minus the length of the radius of the first
1/4 loop element at which point it pushes to a vertical upline and performs
three legs of an outside square loop with the third descending leg occurring
on the center line, the bottom of which line the model pulls to upright level
flight and performs an inside square loop the opposite side of center of equal
proportion to the first outside loop and at the completion of which the model
pushes to recover in inverted level flight.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That's about as good as I'm going to be able to
come up with.>>>></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net
href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net', '');">Jerry
Stebbins</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org', '');">NSRCA
Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:29
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Square
Eight</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dave, I agree with what you have said, and I
was trying to get some resolution for clarity and understanding for all
about what is judged and how it is judged.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Unfortunately without
specifying that about the first line, and/or last line
you are leaving interpretation open to those who seem to want to
"interpret". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I am going to be a devils
advocate here to get that clarity! Again I am looking at only the maneuver
itself NOT the in/ out lines that all agree have to be there. I am leaving
that to DON to clarify the question of "how long"( by the way the old rule
book under E. did have the 15 meter numbers)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As example you say "fly PAST center, start the
++Maneuver with a negative push"--- OK I can understand that-so the
judging of the maneuver starts when the plane moves off it's inverted
track/line --eg the start of the first radius (push) is the first
judged part of the "outside square" part of the maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now we have to finish it off since we have not
completed the last line segment making up the first square (outside)
That line segment to be judged (following your statement) is the final
element of the "outside square" and is the result of the last
(4th) push in the sequence with the plane now on a straight line
(final maneuver element line) projected from the end of the last radius
(push) to the original start of the first radius (push)and being
-on line, same length, same track, and at same height. Now you have two
perfect squares of reverse entry (outside/inside) and same entry and
exit attitude (inverted)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is exactly what I said in my Version One,
and is the same as the old 2001 Rulebook description (except the inverted
entry)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> This then makes the line
preceeding the first push the "entrance line" and it's associated
downgrades, and the line after the intersect of the last line and the start
of the first push-the "exit line" and it's associated downgrades. Everything
else is associated with the maneuver itself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> This may answer all the
potential questions I hear wafting in the breeze.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Version Two does match what I understood to be
the intent of Troy's committee, and the Aresti he made. I personally think
it would be easier to judge that way,since the judge has no
visible previous reference point to match too (no judging aids allowed
per somebody!) but somehow the associated wording changes did not
reflect that input. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> SOOO we fly what we got the
way it is writ!!! </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('DaveL322@comcast.net', '');">DaveL322@comcast.net</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org', '');">NSRCA
Mailing List</A> ; <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org', '');">NSRCA
Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:50
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Square Eight</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>How many center maneuvers start at center? Technically, none
(they all have an entry radius or rolling element prior to center, let
alone the straight line entry), but outside of the manuevers that start at
center (save the straight line entry) such as centered stall turns, 2
loops, centered humpties, etc......many of the center maneuvers don't
start at center......slow roll, 4 point roll, etc.....Square loop, Cuban,
hourglass, Z, Goldfish, Double I, etc...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't see a problem with a maneuver that is symmetrical about
center not "starting" at center.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This whole thing shouldn't be an issue - trust me, if
the Masters Schedule subcommittee ever thought this kind of
discussion would ensue over this maneuver, we'd have put in something
really exciting like straight inverted flight. And this kind of
discussion makes me think we need to put a clause in the rulebook
regarding "plain English" - this should be simple, fly PAST center,
start the Sq Hor 8 with a negative push, and when it is done, if it
isn't two squares side by side on side of the center pole, downgrade
per the rules (and no, no special downgrades are needed to describe this
manuever, all you need to know is in the basics of the judging guide....in
plain English).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There have been some excellent writeups and points made in this
thread.....the answers are all there for this maneuver, and for the
straight lines between maneuvers.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "george w. kennie"
<geobet@gis.net> <BR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hey Jim,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My hat's off to you for figuring this one
out in the way that's supported by the rulebook. The way that Jerry
likes it performed is how Vicente and I originally envisioned it
and is actually the most logical to me, but the rulebook supports your
original execution procedure. Yup, it can be done more than one way, but
the book doesn't grant us an option. Both ways it's a centered
maneuver, but the start point is not at center when performed
according to the book.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think you scooped us on this one Jim. Way
to go.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jivey61@bellsouth.net
href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('jivey61@bellsouth.net', '');">jivey61@bellsouth.net</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org', '');">NSRCA
Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 14, 2006
12:39 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Square Eight</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So now there is 2 ways to do the
8?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>......and you want the 1st vertical
segment to be on center.That will work too.....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Look people I have flown this Horizontal
8 every way it can be flown in controlline stunt many years
ago......Just tell me which way to fly this one,now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jim Ivey</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net
href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net', '');">Jerry
Stebbins</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org', '');">Discussion
-NSRCA</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 14,
2006 11:56 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Square Eight</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mr. Ivey, sir, maybe this will
help.(and others also) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We all know there are eight (8) lines
and (8) corners to the maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We all know it is centered- so one half
is on each side of center.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We all know one half of the maneuver is
an outside square, and the other is an inside square.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One would assume that if you have to
enter it inverted the first half would be the "outside
half"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Also since you enter inverted
and "low" -then one would assume that the maneuver is above
that entry line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I assume there are really entry and
exit lines before and after the maneuver, so where the maneuver
"starts" is what we are striving for.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Most of us (writer not included) can
tell where center is--</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>soooo---there are two versions on how
to do this flying around so lets sort that out also--One
version performs the first "outside corner" (push) after center as
the first maneuver, the other starts the maneuver
on center with the first "outside corner" (push). Maybe there
is a clue there since this is a "centered" maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>First Version</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you enter the maneuver with a
straight line -low - then the first line past center is either
the beginning of the maneuver, or not a part of the maneuver, since
you have gone past the last corner (on center), and did not do it.
Some have said you will never be back to the center in the
exactly same attitude again (not totally true since you do enter and
exit inverted) during the maneuver so maybe that helps us narrow it
down.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Also if the first three corners are
"pushes" and the next four are "pulls" that leaves one "push" left
to do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>OK everyone following so far--we have a
"push" corner left to go, for sure,and a horizontal inverted line to
define as either the "beginning" or the "end" of the
maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You could say that you started the
maneuver when you went past center, but that would not be
"technically correct" since you have to couple the last corner to
the line, and it would be a right angle-no length radius to be
correct, plus that would force you into an automatic downgrade since
it would not be like the other seven--never could do a perfect
10.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So now do we split the first line into
a "start point" that is "some" distance</FONT> <FONT face=Arial
size=2>after center so the "end point" of the "corner" has a
defineable location, OR find an answer that allows a "10" and
is "judgeable"</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So I would suggest the following would
clarify this one. 1) the first part of the maneuver that is
judged is the start of the first radius (lets not argue the entrance
and exit line existence), and the last part that is judged is the
straight line after the eight (8) radius "push" that is of proper
length for the "square" geometry, at the same altitude and same
track to intersect the "start" point of the first
"push" .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is doable but does not seem like a
reasonable way to end up a "centered" maneuver</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Version Two</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Again lets not flog the (entrance and
exit lines-they exist)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The maneuver starts inverted and
low with the first part that is judged is the first corner
"push" to vertical "on center" to start the "inside" square,
followed by four equal lines and "pulls" (last one on
center to vertical), followed by three (3) more lines and
"pushes" and then the eight (8) and last line judged
is the straight line of proper length for the "square" geometry, at
the same altitude and same track as the entrance line at the
start of the first corner (push), that started the maneuver on
"center".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This makes more sense as it actually
"does something" on center to start a "centered" maneuver. Also this
matches the Aresti diagram--for what that is worth in the AMA
world.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think what is confusing some is the
fact that not all "pushes" and "pulls' follow each
other.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I vote for this one! --And no need for
a flame suit since all I will have to do is Judge it, not Fly
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
<DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<HR>
<DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<HR>
<DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<HR>
<DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><!-- end of AOLMsgPart_3_7d86936d-2727-4443-8829-a6da6b3b0242 -->
<DIV class=AOLPlainTextBody
id=AOLMsgPart_4_7d86936d-2727-4443-8829-a6da6b3b0242><PRE><TT>_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
<A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
<A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A>
</TT></PRE></DIV><!-- end of AOLMsgPart_4_7d86936d-2727-4443-8829-a6da6b3b0242 -->
<DIV class=AOLPromoFooter>
<HR style="MARGIN-TOP: 10px">
<A
href="http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/1615326657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom%2Fnewaol"
target=_blank><B>Check out the new AOL</B></A>. Most comprehensive set of free
safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.<BR></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>