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<DIV>How many center maneuvers start at center? Technically, none (they all have an entry radius or rolling element prior to center, let alone the straight line entry), but outside of the manuevers that start at center (save the straight line entry) such as centered stall turns, 2 loops, centered humpties, etc......many of the center maneuvers don't start at center......slow roll, 4 point roll, etc.....Square loop, Cuban, hourglass, Z, Goldfish, Double I, etc...</DIV>
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<DIV>I don't see a problem with a maneuver that is symmetrical about center not "starting" at center.</DIV>
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<DIV>This whole thing shouldn't be an issue - trust me, if the Masters Schedule subcommittee ever thought this kind of discussion would ensue over this maneuver, we'd have put in something really exciting like straight inverted flight. And this kind of discussion makes me think we need to put a clause in the rulebook regarding "plain English" - this should be simple, fly PAST center, start the Sq Hor 8 with a negative push, and when it is done, if it isn't two squares side by side on side of the center pole, downgrade per the rules (and no, no special downgrades are needed to describe this manuever, all you need to know is in the basics of the judging guide....in plain English).</DIV>
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<DIV>There have been some excellent writeups and points made in this thread.....the answers are all there for this maneuver, and for the straight lines between maneuvers.</DIV>
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<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
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<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "george w. kennie" <geobet@gis.net> <BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hey Jim,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My hat's off to you for figuring this one out in the way that's supported by the rulebook. The way that Jerry likes it performed is how Vicente and I originally envisioned it and is actually the most logical to me, but the rulebook supports your original execution procedure. Yup, it can be done more than one way, but the book doesn't grant us an option. Both ways it's a centered maneuver, but the start point is not at center when performed according to the book.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think you scooped us on this one Jim. Way to go.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=jivey61@bellsouth.net href="mailto:jivey61@bellsouth.net">jivey61@bellsouth.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:39 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Square Eight</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So now there is 2 ways to do the 8?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>......and you want the 1st vertical segment to be on center.That will work too.....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Look people I have flown this Horizontal 8 every way it can be flown in controlline stunt many years ago......Just tell me which way to fly this one,now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jim Ivey</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net href="mailto:JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net">Jerry Stebbins</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">Discussion -NSRCA</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 14, 2006 11:56 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Square Eight</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mr. Ivey, sir, maybe this will help.(and others also) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We all know there are eight (8) lines and (8) corners to the maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We all know it is centered- so one half is on each side of center.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We all know one half of the maneuver is an outside square, and the other is an inside square.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One would assume that if you have to enter it inverted the first half would be the "outside half"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Also since you enter inverted and "low" -then one would assume that the maneuver is above that entry line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I assume there are really entry and exit lines before and after the maneuver, so where the maneuver "starts" is what we are striving for.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Most of us (writer not included) can tell where center is--</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>soooo---there are two versions on how to do this flying around so lets sort that out also--One version performs the first "outside corner" (push) after center as the first maneuver, the other starts the maneuver on center with the first "outside corner" (push). Maybe there is a clue there since this is a "centered" maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>First Version</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you enter the maneuver with a straight line -low - then the first line past center is either the beginning of the maneuver, or not a part of the maneuver, since you have gone past the last corner (on center), and did not do it. Some have said you will never be back to the center in the exactly same attitude again (not totally true since you do enter and exit inverted) during the maneuver so maybe that helps us narrow it down.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Also if the first three corners are "pushes" and the next four are "pulls" that leaves one "push" left to do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>OK everyone following so far--we have a "push" corner left to go, for sure,and a horizontal inverted line to define as either the "beginning" or the "end" of the maneuver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You could say that you started the maneuver when you went past center, but that would not be "technically correct" since you have to couple the last corner to the line, and it would be a right angle-no length radius to be correct, plus that would force you into an automatic downgrade since it would not be like the other seven--never could do a perfect 10.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So now do we split the first line into a "start point" that is "some" distance</FONT> <FONT face=Arial size=2>after center so the "end point" of the "corner" has a defineable location, OR find an answer that allows a "10" and is "judgeable"</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So I would suggest the following would clarify this one. 1) the first part of the maneuver that is judged is the start of the first radius (lets not argue the entrance and exit line existence), and the last part that is judged is the straight line after the eight (8) radius "push" that is of proper length for the "square" geometry, at the same altitude and same track to intersect the "start" point of the first "push" .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is doable but does not seem like a reasonable way to end up a "centered" maneuver</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Version Two</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Again lets not flog the (entrance and exit lines-they exist)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The maneuver starts inverted and low with the first part that is judged is the first corner "push" to vertical "on center" to start the "inside" square, followed by four equal lines and "pulls" (last one on center to vertical), followed by three (3) more lines and "pushes" and then the eight (8) and last line judged is the straight line of proper length for the "square" geometry, at the same altitude and same track as the entrance line at the start of the first corner (push), that started the maneuver on "center".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This makes more sense as it actually "does something" on center to start a "centered" maneuver. Also this matches the Aresti diagram--for what that is worth in the AMA world.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think what is confusing some is the fact that not all "pushes" and "pulls' follow each other.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I vote for this one! --And no need for a flame suit since all I will have to do is Judge it, not Fly it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
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