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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We have worn out this thread..... It needs a name
change..... Retire "masters Square 8",... I still don't know where
it starts,and has nothing to do with lines between maneuvers or S &
G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jim Ivey</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:24
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters
Square 8</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I remember a Don's article in K-Factor. He was recominding to write
the scores in a separate piece of paper so we DON'T take our eyes off the
plane to write the score. I have been doing this since I read the
article. Now, it is easy for me to deduct points in the "no man"s
land". I do to all so there is not problem. It is very common to
see pilots adjusting in the "no man's land" for cross winds by rolling
the plane. It is clear in the rule book that the wings have to be
level. This is another example of "no man's land" judging.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente "Vince" Bortone </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: DaveL322@comcast.net <BR>
<DIV>In practice, I think the "no mans" land is being judged....maybe
subconsciously to an extent....just like high quality take offs and
landings, clean procedure turns and trim passes, etc, all "add to the
show".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If "no mans" land needs to be specifically addressed, then I agree it
should be done along the lines of what Ed has described.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think the last thing pattern needs is a place for a subjective score,
or a category which can largely be subjectively scored - ie, any kind of
presentation score, overall flight score, style, appearance, etc.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: Ed Deaver
<divesplat@yahoo.com> <BR>
<DIV>I am curious about this also. It is almost guaranteed if a
pilot makes a radical heading change in "no mans land" to be given a
fairly stiff downgrade. If the pilots "sneaks" it in (we all do it
ya know) but gets caught what downgrade to give.</DIV>
<DIV>My understanding in Pre-turnaround, a pilot was judged only while in
the box or while performing the maneuver show center. However, we
are flying turnaround now.</DIV>
<DIV>Maybe we need a rules proposal to incorporate something along the
lines of: Once in the box, there
is no dead zone and after the 15M straight line is drawn to end the
previous manuever, the next manuever begins. Or something else,
maybe 1/2 way between maneuvers establishes when the last maneuver
ends and the next begins. In this manner, all flight in the box is
judged and assigned a specific downgrade to a specific maneuver.</DIV>
<DIV>Just a thought.</DIV>
<DIV>Ed<BR><BR><B><I>Keith Black <tkeithblack@gmail.com></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Looks
like we're leaving the discussion regarding what happens in 'no
man's<BR>land' as your example has nothing to do with lines between two
consecutive<BR>maneuvers. My deja vu was intended to switch to something
that could be<BR>related to more readily to provoke thought and
illustrate my point, it was<BR>supposed to be similar.<BR><BR>My guess
is that you're trying to bring smoothness and gracefulness into<BR>play
with your question. I for one would give both maneuvers 10 and
would<BR>not deduct for the height difference. Since the end maneuver is
a height<BR>adjusting maneuver it seems perfectly acceptable to adjust
the height of the<BR>centered maneuver.<BR><BR>I understand that there's
an objective to fly all maneuvers a similar size<BR>and ideally
position, but I've never heard anything concrete as to how to<BR>credit
or debit for this. For me if someone flies the tri! ! angle p erfect
and<BR>the square perfect but at a 50' different base line they're still
both<BR>getting 10's.<BR><BR>That being said, a few weeks back I was
posting arguments in favor of S&G.<BR>Unfortunately I'm not sure
it's well enough defined for pilots to get all<BR>the credit they may
deserve. The only way to truly credit for overall<BR>matched size, speed
and positioning may be to have a separate score/judge<BR>viewing the
sequence as a whole.<BR><BR>Keith Black<BR><BR><BR>----- Original
Message ----- <BR>From: "Lance Van Nostrand"
<PATTERNDUDE@COMCAST.NET><BR>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006
11:41 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square
8<BR><BR><BR>> Let me call the example, because yours is really just
deja vu all over<BR>> again.<BR>><BR>> The pilot performs two
perfect center manuvers in a row. What they are<BR>> doesn't matter
but let's say they are the new triangle and then! th! e< BR>&g
t; golfball. The only thing is, the base altitude for each is
50ft<BR>different.<BR>> Should this get a lower score than another
pilot that also flies the same<BR>> manuvers also perfect but their
base altitude is the same?<BR>><BR>> --Lance<BR>><BR>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>> From: "Keith Black"
<TKEITHBLACK@GMAIL.COM><BR>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> Sent: Monday, November 13,
2006 10:54 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square
8<BR>><BR>><BR>> >I completely disagree with you, this is
not a S&G issue. In my example I<BR>> > never said the drop in
altitude wasn't smooth and graceful. In fact, it<BR>> >
may<BR>> > well have been the most graceful and smooth loss of
altitude ever, but<BR>it<BR>> > still gets a downgrade based on
geometry.<BR>> ><BR>> > New example:<BR>> ><BR>>
> A pilot gets blown way too far in, s! o on th e l! ong lin e from
the end of<BR>the<BR>> > humpty to the square eight the pilot very
smoothly and gracefully blends<BR>> > in<BR>> > rudder and
moves the plane out about 75 yards. Fifteen meters prior to<BR>> >
center this crafty flier adjusts his track and straightens the
track<BR>out.<BR>> > You, however, being the attentive judge that
you are notice this sneaky<BR>> > adjustment and judge it how? And
on what grounds?<BR>> ><BR>> > For me it's easy, you can't
both fly a parallel track to the flight line<BR>> > and<BR>>
> adjust your distance from the flight line by 75 meters, that's
bad<BR>> > geometry.<BR>> > Seems we teach the Sportsman
this lesson in the two straight flight<BR>> > segments. For a 75
meter adjustment I'd probably take 1 point, maybe<BR>more<BR>> >
depending on how dramatic the adjustment in distance looked.<BR>>
><BR>> > "But he straightened out 15 meters be! fore th e star!
t of th e square", you<BR>> > say,<BR>> > "what about the
'no man's land'.<BR>> ><BR>> > "Don't care", I say, "we fly
a sequence, not a lot of individual<BR>> > maneuvers.<BR>> >
There is no 'no man's land'."<BR>> ><BR>> > Again I'm more
than willing to change the way I judge if Don or the<BR>> >
judging<BR>> > committee explain that I'm wrong, after all, what
do I know.<BR>> ><BR>> > Keith Black<BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>> > ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> > From:
"Lance Van Nostrand" <PATTERNDUDE@COMCAST.NET><BR>> > To: "NSRCA
Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> > Sent:
Monday, November 13, 2006 6:43 PM<BR>> > Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>>
>> 1/2 pt S&G<BR>> >><BR>> >> ----- Original
Message ----- <BR>> >> From: "Keith Black"
<TKEITHBLACK@GMAIL.COM><BR>! > &g t;> To! : "NSRC A Mailing
List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >> Sent: Sunday,
November 12, 2006 11:32 PM<BR>> >> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8<BR>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >> >I agree that the downgrade is lenient,
this didn't escape my<BR>attention.<BR>> >> > However, I'm
not sure by what other criteria/rule one would downgrade<BR>a<BR>>
>> > loss<BR>> >> > of altitude. Perhaps Don could
help here.<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> > Keep in mind that
the 15 foot drop you mention may not appear as much<BR>> >>
> of<BR>> > a<BR>> >> > drop depending on the
height of the plane and box positioning during<BR>> >> >
the<BR>> >> > drop. I'll be honest, right or wrong, if I'm
in the chair and I see a<BR>> >> > noticeable drop I'll take
1/2 point, if it's really obvious drop I'd<BR>> > take<BR>&g!
t; > > > 1<!
BR>> >> > pt. Maybe I'm wrong, this is a good time to set
me straight and level<BR>> > ;-)<BR>> >> > .<BR>>
>> ><BR>> >> > OK Lance, so if you're judging
Sportsman and you see the plane drop<BR>20<BR>> >> >
feet<BR>> >> > on the straight flight out as it flies from
one end of the box to the<BR>> >> > other,<BR>> >>
> how would you score it. By your definition seems like you have
to<BR>give<BR>> > it<BR>> >> > a<BR>> >> >
10 since the error would only be around 3 to 4 degrees.<BR>> >>
><BR>> >> > Keith Black<BR>> >> ><BR>>
>> ><BR>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
<BR>> >> > From: "Lance Van Nostrand"
<PATTERNDUDE@COMCAST.NET><BR>> >> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >> > Sent: Sunday,
November 12, 2006 10:32 PM<BR>! > &g t;! ;> & gt; Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8<BR>> >> ><BR>>
>> ><BR>> >> >> I don't think the rules support
your claim that the 15m entry/exit<BR>is<BR>> >> >>
a<BR>> >> >> minimum. I think you have just made up your
own rule to downgrade<BR>at<BR>> >> >> 1<BR>> >>
>> point per 15. However, this is very lenient downgrading because
to<BR>> >> >> get<BR>> > a<BR>> >> >
1<BR>> >> >> point downgrade by descending or ascending
at 15 degrees, over a<BR>100m<BR>> >> >> distance, the
plane would change altitude by 77 ft. A pilot<BR>changing<BR>>
>> >> altitude by 15 ft or so would only be making a 3
degree error.<BR>(note:<BR>> >> >> the<BR>> >>
>> box width at 150 meters is 600 meters).<BR>> >>
>><BR>> >> >> Therefore, if I l! ose 15 ft of alt!
itude a s I fly from the end of the<BR>> >> >
reverse<BR>> >> >> cuban into the stall turn (manuvers 1
and 2) this should hardly<BR>> > register<BR>> >> >
as<BR>> >> >> a downgrade.<BR>> >>
>><BR>> >> >> --Lance<BR>> >>
>><BR>> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>
>> >> From: "Keith Black" <TKEITHBLACK@GMAIL.COM><BR>>
>> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >> >> Sent:
Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:40 PM<BR>> >> >> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8<BR>> >> >><BR>>
>> >><BR>> >> >> >I agree with Don's
description on the maneuver, this makes perfect<BR>> >
sense<BR>> >> > to<BR>> >> >> > me.
However, I really don't think it matters if you visualize the<BR>>!
>&g t; >> ! > ce nter<BR>> >> >> >
or<BR>> >> >> > the first corner as the start because
IMO any deviation in track,<BR>> >> > altitude<BR>>
>> >> > change or wing bobble approaching the eight,
whether 15 m or<BR>greater<BR>> >> > from<BR>> >>
>> > the theoretical start of the eight is grounds for
downgrade.<BR>> >> >> ><BR>> >> >> >
This thinking goes to what Lance was discussing as "no
man's<BR>land".<BR>> > I'm<BR>> >> >> >
not<BR>> >> >> > sure there is such a thing, I've
always thought of the 15 m entry<BR>> > line<BR>> >> >
as<BR>> >> >> > a<BR>> >> >> >
minimum.<BR>> >> >> ><BR>> >> >> >
Let's take an example. A pilot comes out of the Humpty Bump
prior<BR>to<BR>> >> >> > the<BR>> >! ;> &
gt;> > fi! gure ei ght and draws a 15 m straight line. Then they
start<BR>loosing<BR>> >> >> > altitude and continue
dropping until 15 m before center (Lance's<BR>> >> >>
> theoretical<BR>> >> >> > no man's land). I for
one would deduct points from the eight based<BR>> >> >>
> on<BR>> >> > the<BR>> >> >> >
15<BR>> >> >> > degree rule. I don't think the spirit
of the rules is "anything<BR>> > goes",<BR>> >> >
or<BR>> >> >> > "it's not so bad" as long as it's not
15 m before a maneuver<BR>starts.<BR>> > If<BR>> >>
>> > one<BR>> >> >> > does score this way
then the pilot that keeps a perfect line<BR>between<BR>> >>
> these<BR>> >> >> > two maneuvers will not be
rewarded for doing a better job.<BR>> >> >> ><BR>>
>> >>! ; > Keith Black<BR>>! ; >& gt; >>
><BR>> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
<BR>> >> >> > From: "Lance Van Nostrand"
<PATTERNDUDE@COMCAST.NET><BR>> >> >> > To: "NSRCA
Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >>
>> > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 8:07 AM<BR>> >>
>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8<BR>>
>> >> ><BR>> >> >> ><BR>> >>
>> >> Don,<BR>> >> >> >><BR>>
>> >> >> Since it is the point of this list to be
nitpicky, let me say<BR>that<BR>> >> >> >>
when<BR>> >> >> > the<BR>> >> >>
>> plane is inverted at center it is at a point that it will
never<BR>> > return<BR>> >> >> >> to,<BR>>
>> >> >> therefore the actual center can not be th! e
start of the manuver.<BR>> &! gt;> >> >>
Granted,<BR>> >> >> >> the center is part of the
straight line that begins and ends all<BR>> >> >>
>> manuvers,<BR>> >> >> >> but it is not part
of the actual figure 8. So to be complete,<BR>> > judging<BR>>
>> >> >> starts 15m before the exit of the final
radius and ends 15m after<BR>> > this<BR>> >> >>
>> point. This encompases the center but is not the actual
beginning<BR>> > and<BR>> >> >> >>
ending.<BR>> >> >> >><BR>> >> >>
>> As for Stuart's comment, I think any downgrade applied to
what<BR>the<BR>> >> >> > airplane<BR>> >>
>> >> does when it is in "no man's land" falls in the
smoothness and<BR>> >> >> > Gracefulness<BR>>
>> >> >> category and should be! minima l. ("no man's
land" exists betwe! en<BR>& gt; > some<BR>> >> >>
>> manuvers that are far apart where the prior manuver and its
15m<BR>> >> >> >> exit<BR>> >> >
line<BR>> >> >> >> end, but there is a long space
before the 15m entry line of the<BR>> >> >> >>
next<BR>> >> >> >> manuver.)<BR>> >>
>> >><BR>> >> >> >> --Lance<BR>>
>> >> >><BR>> >> >> >> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>> >> >> >> From: "Don
Ramsey (CoxNet)" <DON.RAMSEY@COX.NET><BR>> >> >> >>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>>
>> >> >> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:40
PM<BR>> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Masters Square 8<BR>> >> >> >><BR>> >>
>> ! >> ;<BR>> >> >> >> &g! t; Lanc
e,<BR>> >> >> >> ><BR>> >> >>
>> > I believe it starts at center. Straight line before center
and<BR>> > start<BR>> >> > at<BR>> >>
>> >> > center. The reason I say that is rule 14.1 which
says "Each<BR>time<BR>> >> >> >> > the<BR>>
>> >> >> > model<BR>> >> >> >>
> passes before the judges, a maneuver is executed, except
after<BR>> >> > takeoff<BR>> >> >> >
and<BR>> >> >> >> > landing." Of course, some
maneuvers start before center as the<BR>> > slow<BR>> >>
>> > roll,<BR>> >> >> >> > etc. As for
scoring, I'm not entirely sure it matters.<BR>> >> >>
>> ><BR>> >> >> >> > Don<BR>>
>> >> >> ><BR>! > &g t;> >>
>> > ----- Original M! essage ----- <BR>> >> >>
>> > From: <JIVEY61@BELLSOUTH.NET><BR>> >> >>
>> > To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >> >> >>
> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:16 PM<BR>> >> >>
>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8<BR>>
>> >> >> ><BR>> >> >> >>
><BR>> >> >> >> >> Lance<BR>> >>
>> >> >> You will have to have a entry line before the
push to vertical<BR>> > past<BR>> >> >> >>
>> center.This is where I think it starts... at the start of
the<BR>> > entry<BR>> >> >> > line.<BR>>
>> >> >> >><BR>> >> >> >>
>> Jim Ivey<BR>> >> >> >> >> -----
Original Message -----! <BR>&g t; >> >> >>
>> From: "La! nce Van Nostrand" <PATTERNDUDE@COMCAST.NET><BR>>
>> >> >> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >> >> >>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:51 PM<BR>> >>
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters
Square 8<BR>> >> >> >> >><BR>> >>
>> >> >><BR>> >> >> >>
>>> OK,so where does the manuver begin and end? At center,
the<BR>> > radius<BR>> >> >> > after<BR>>
>> >> >> >>> center, at the first corner
initiation?<BR>> >> >> >> >>><BR>>
>> >> >> >>> --Lance<BR>> >>
>> >> >>><BR>> >> >> >>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> >> >>
>> >>! ;> F rom: <JIVEY61@BELLSOUTH.NET><BR>> >>
>! > &g t;> >>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >> >> >>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:06 PM<BR>> >>
>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters
Square 8<BR>> >> >> >> >>><BR>>
>> >> >> >>><BR>> >> >>
>> >>> > Jason<BR>> >> >> >>
>>> > The way we are flying the 8 is enter inverted and 1st
loop<BR>> >> >> >> >>> >
(outside)<BR>> >> >> >> >>> >
to<BR>> >> >> >> >>> > the<BR>>
>> >> >> >>> > right of center and next
(inside) loop to the left of<BR>> > center.The<BR>> >>
>> > first<BR>> >> >> >> >>>!
> l oop<BR>> >> >> >> >>> > ! is
outs ide loop and 1st vertical segment starts past<BR>> >>
>> >> >>> > center.Of<BR>> >> >>
> course<BR>> >> >> >> >> swap<BR>>
>> >> >> >>> > left and right for opposite
flying direction.<BR>> >> >> >> >>>
><BR>> >> >> >> >>> ><BR>>
>> >> >> >>> > Jim Ivey<BR>> >>
>> >> >>> ><BR>> >> >> >>
>>> > ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> >>
>> >> >>> > From: "JShulman"
<JSHULMAN@CFL.RR.COM><BR>> >> >> >> >>>
> To: "NSRCA" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> >>
>> >> >>> > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006
4:08 PM<BR>> >> >> >> &! gt;> > >
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters Square 8<BR>&g! t; > >
>> >> >>> ><BR>> >> >> >>
>>> ><BR>> >> >> >> >>>
>> Hi All,<BR>> >> >> >> >>>
>><BR>> >> >> >> >>> >> Does
the Square horizontal 8 start at center or just past<BR>> >>
> center?<BR>> >> >> >> >>>
>><BR>> >> >> >> >>> >>
Regards,<BR>> >> >> >> >>> >>
Jason<BR>> >> >> >> >>> >>
www.jasonshulman.com<BR>> >> >> >> >>>
>> www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>> >> >> >>
>>> >> www.composite-arf.com<BR>> >> >>
>> >>> >> -- <BR>> >> >> >>
>>> >> No virus fou! nd in t his outgoing
message.<BR>> >> >> >> >>&g! t; > >
Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>> >> >> >>
>>> >> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.2/528 -
Release<BR>> > Date:<BR>> >> >> >>
>>> >> 11/10/2006<BR>> >> >> >>
>>> >><BR>> >> >> >> >>>
>><BR>> >> >> >> >>> >>
_______________________________________________<BR>> >>
>> >> >>> >> NSRCA-discussion mailing
list<BR>> >> >> >> >>> >>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> >> >> >>
>>> >>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>
>> >> >> >>> ><BR>> >> >>
>> >>> >
_______________________________________________<BR>> ! >> ;
>> >> >>> > NSRCA-discussion mailing
list<BR>>! ; >& gt; >> >> >>> >
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>>> >
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>> >> >> >>><BR>> >> >>
>> >>>
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>>>
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>> >> >> >><BR>> >> >> >>
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