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<div>Gents,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think you are both correct. If the maneuver is a center maneuver, then one must follow the symmetrical path for most maneuvers. If it's a TA, then line segments do not necessarily have to be the same. Top Hat comes immediately to mind, first as a center maneuver then as a TA</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Matt </div>
<div> </div>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: vanputte@cox.net<br>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
Sent: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:18 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question -verticalsegments<br>
<br>
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<div class=AOLPlainTextBody id=AOLMsgPart_0_0841bd75-9294-4731-8a5f-b2a6af8171ba><PRE><TT>
On Oct 18, 2006, at 11:09 AM, Dean Pappas wrote:
> Sorry Ron, but I disagree with you.
> The Figure M must be symmetric. It's that simple.
> Even 9 out of 10 non-trained casual observers will eventually,
> correctly figure out that both sides should be of equal height.
>
> If the maneuver description is lacking, then we must fix it,
> but we must not fall into the trap of carefully parsing imperfectly
> written rules
> and, producing silly interpretations. This isn't court, and
> loopholes should not decide who wins!
I would disagree with me IF I had said that the line segments in the
Figure M could be of different length. I said, "I don't agree that
the line segments in different parts of a maneuver necessarily must
be the same". The fact that I sometimes fly the maneuver with line
segments of different length is a different matter. <VBG>
Ron Van Putte
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces%40lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces%40lists.nsrca.org%5dOn">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On</A> Behalf Of Ron Van
> Putte
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:54 AM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question
> -verticalsegments
>
>
>
> On Oct 18, 2006, at 8:19 AM, Stuart Chale wrote:
>
>> I think that this would fall under the general rules of all radii
>> being
>> equal and all line segments being equal. If line segments were of
>> different
>> lengths then the top of the maneuver and perhaps the bottom would be
>> different in different parts of the maneuver. That would call for a
>> downgrade.
>
> I don't agree that the line segments in different parts of a maneuver
> necessarily must be the same. We can use the Stall Turns W/ Half
> Rolls to make an altitude adjustment, so the two line would be of
> different length and no penalty should be assessed. The Square Loop
> must have line segments of equal length to preserve the geometry of
> the loop.
>
> Ron Van Putte
>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces%40lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
>> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces%40lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of
>> Keith Black
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 1:13 AM
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question -
>> verticalsegments
>>
>> Now that we're breaking this down, I'd like some clarification on the
>> section of the rule below that states:
>>
>> "The length of the vertical segments is not a judging criteria."
>>
>> In the strictest translation of this sentence I would say that this
>> means
>> that the two stall turns do not need to be the same height,
>> however, this
>> seems inconsistent will all other centered maneuvers where two
>> halves of an
>> object do have to match in size.
>>
>> A looser translation could be that the intention of this verbiage
>> is to
>> point out that a shorter 'M' should score as well as a taller 'M',
>> but
>> assumes that both sides should be the same height (which isn't stated
>> anywhere).
>>
>> Unless otherwise clarified, I'd have to deduce that indeed the two
>> stall
>> turns don't have to be the same height.
>>
>> Keith Black
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Glen Watson" <<A href="mailto:gwatson11%40houston.rr.com">gwatson11@houston.rr.com</A>>
>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 12:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question
>>
>>
>> Below is the Figure M description from page 79-80 of the current
>> AMA rule
>> book...Note the statement regarding rolls and stall turn direction
>> are
>> pilot's option...I then found this statement "Edit page 79-80
>> Figure M with
>> ¼ or ½ rolls" to include ¾ roll options" on the NSRCA page under:
>> <A href="http://nsrca.org/competition/judging/Patterns2007" target=_blank>http://nsrca.org/competition/judging/Patterns2007</A>
>>
>> Figure M with 1/4 or 1/2 Rolls: Model pulls up into one-quarter
>> (1/4) loop
>> to a vertical track, hesitates then performs prescribed roll,
>> hesitates then
>> executes a stall turn through 180 degrees, hesitates, performs
>> prescribed roll, hesitates then executes one-half (1/2) outside
>> loop to
>> vertical track, hesitates, performs prescribed roll, hesitates,
>> executes a
>> stall turn through 180 degrees, hesitates, performs prescribed roll,
>> hesitates then recovers with another one-quarter (1/4) loop to
>> level flight.
>> Direction of rolls and stall turns are pilot's option. The length
>> of the
>> vertical segments is not a judging criteria.
>>
>> Downgrades:
>> 1. Model not vertical at start and finish of rolls
>> and stall turns.
>> 2. Stall turns not exactly 180 degrees.
>> 3. Model does not execute prescribed rolls.
>> 4. Rolls not centered in vertical lines.
>> 5. Bottom of outside half loop not at same altitude
>> as entry and exit.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Glen
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces%40lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
>> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces%40lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of
>> Jerry Budd
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:20 AM
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question
>>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> Unless the maneuver has changed from 15 years ago all the rolls have
>> to be in the same direction, resulting in one stall turn being
>> canopy-facing you and the other being belly-facing you (your choice
>> as to which comes first). It's a tough maneuver, especially when the
>> wind is blowing other than down the runway.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>>> Bob
>>> My memory crutch is,when flying from left to right, the 1st 2 roll
>>> directions are left-left and 2nd 2 roll directions are right-right.
>>> When flying from the right to left,the 1st 2 roll directions are
>> right-right
>>> and 2nd 2 roll directions are left-left.
>>> Like Arch said the center half loop is inverted in both cases.
>>> Lotsa a upside down.
>>>
>>> Jim Ivey
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Archie Stafford" <<A href="mailto:rcpattern%40stx.rr.com">rcpattern@stx.rr.com</A>>
>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:11 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question
>>>
>>>
>>>> Bob,
>>>>
>>>> It has to be inverted. The direction of roll must be the same
>>>> on every
>>> 3/4
>>>> roll therefore you end up inverted across the middle.
>>>>
>>>> Arch
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces%40lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
>>>> [<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces%40lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>] On Behalf Of
>>>> Bob Kane
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:53 AM
>>>> To: <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion%40lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question
>>>>
>>>> OK, I'm finally try to fly this thing with a
>>>> pencil . . . . . . one
>>>> question I have (so far) is the 1/2 loop between the two stall
>>>> turns in
>>> the
>>>> figure M: Does it matter if it is an inside or outside half
>>>> loop? The
>>>> aresti diagram posted on Flying Giants shows it as an outside
>>>> half loop
>>> with
>>>> no option. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Kane
>>>> <A href="mailto:getterflash%40yahoo.com">getterflash@yahoo.com</A>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
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>>>> <A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> ___________
>> Jerry Budd
>> Budd Engineering
>> (661) 722-5669 Voice/Fax
>> (661) 435-0358 Cell Phone
>> <A href="mailto:jerry%40buddengineering.com">mailto:jerry@buddengineering.com</A>
>> <A href="http://www.buddengineering.com/" target=_blank>http://www.buddengineering.com</A>
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>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> ------
>> ----
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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